TF AA Question

[niceguy2005]

It's probably in the manual, but...is AA fire calculated per TF, per ship or per hex? I seem to recal the manual saying that AA fire was cumulative within a hex, which doesn't really make sense to me.

[jumper]

Hi,
I think it depends what is attacked:
1. If TF is attacked the AA value is per TF.
2. If Port is attacked - it is AA value of the LCUs in the hex + some AA from disbanded ships (except those that are in some TF)
3. If LCU is attacked - it is AA value of LCUs in the hex
4. If AF is attacked - it is AA value of LCUs in the hex

At least I think it works this way. I might be mistaken so I hope someone will confirm or clear any discrepancies.[:)]

[niceguy2005]

Thanks jumper. It makes some difference in arranging TFs, but I have never found a great answer to this question. Your answer would seem to indictate that it is per TF attacked and having multiple TFs in a hex doesn't matter. That would make a lot of sense.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Thanks jumper. It makes some difference in arranging TFs, but I have never found a great answer to this question. Your answer would seem to indictate that it is per TF attacked and having multiple TFs in a hex doesn't matter. That would make a lot of sense.

Jumper's answer sounds correct. Of course, IRL (at least according to Shattered Sword again) each IJN ship was on its own as far as AA went, at least when they were sailing warships in a TF. The IJN ships would be about 8-10 Kyards apart - far to far for any mutual supporting AA fire. This spread was to try to detect any attacking aircraft as far out as possible... and it worked, sometimes. However, there were more than a few times that the IJN ships wouldn't realize they were under attack until bombs started exploding around them. THis included attacks from B-17s, etc. The KB was surprised this way at least once- and if it had been divebombers that spotted them instead of Blenheims (iirc), the KB might have been devastated in the Indian Ocean long before Midway.

[niceguy2005]

Im curious then what others find to be a good level of AA fire for an early war CV TF. Would an AA rating of 3500 for a TF be high or low?

[Mynok]

about 8-10 Kyards

May I deduce this is the standard Imperial "kiloyard"? [:D] [:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

As opposed to the Japanese kiloyard, the equivalent of 1,1111843 Imperial kiloyards.

[Mynok]

No wonder they stayed so far out. They forgot to convert! [:D]

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Im curious then what others find to be a good level of AA fire for an early war CV TF. Would an AA rating of 3500 for a TF be high or low?

I would consider it to be low. About 5K is what I am comfortable with. Even a 100 transport TF can get near 3K.

[Mike Solli]

In early 42, my opponent sent a 7800 AA bombardment TF to visit Wake Island. Two BBs and a CA later, the battered remnants paddled back to Pearl Harbor. I lost 5 planes.[:D] I had 54 Nells/Bettys to oppose him.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

In early 42, my opponent sent a 7800 AA bombardment TF to visit Wake Island. Two BBs and a CA later, the battered remnants paddled back to Pearl Harbor. I lost 5 planes.[:D] I had 54 Nells/Bettys to oppose him.

This is just standard because air dropped ordnance is overly accurate in my opinion. Torpedoes seem to be the worst offenders as the accuracy is basically the same between airdropped torpedoes (targets can see the attackers, can fire at the attackers, can maneuver away etc) and submarine launched torpedoes, which also do not have any way to differentiate between alerted and non alerted targets. Simply a straight accuracy rating. No way to achieve an "anvil attack" or coordinated attack with torps and bombs.

In air launched torpedo attacks, the more torpedoes and or bombs are dropped, perhaps there should be a plus modifier to hit to simulate a possible anvil or coordinated bomb/torpedoe attack is achieved. The base starting accuracy of the air launched weapon should be very low.

In sub attacks, I believe that there should be a surprise potential (have it in surface combat, why not with the much more stealthy subs?) and if achieved the accuracy is modified positively. If sub is surprised, the accuracy is modified negatively. Also, merchants should be easier to hit than warships, beyond any maneuver rating.

[DFalcon]

My experience has been that luck plays a big part in the hit rates. If you score a hit early it dramatically increases the chance to pile on other hits. I have had similair size raids by betties achieve nothing because they could not get that first hit.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: DFalcon


My experience has been that luck plays a big part in the hit rates. If you score a hit early it dramatically increases the chance to pile on other hits. I have had similair size raids by betties achieve nothing because they could not get that first hit.

Agree 100%.

[rockmedic109]

As I understand it, if there are more than 15 ships in a tf, there is a reduced AA value on ships >15. I don't know how the code figures this, however.

A Do only x% of AA count if TF has >15 ships?
B Do only x% of AA count on ship #16 and greater in tf?
C Does the full value of the 15 best AA ships count and the others count at a reduced %?
D Some other way of determination that I haven't thought of yet {probably this one}.

[Onime No Kyo]

Hi all,

I was gonna post on this in Support, but this is even better. I do remember reading that AA is cumilative, but at least from my amateurish observations it doesnt seem to be. For example, if planes are attacking a BB, they get destroyed and damaged at a much higher rate than they do attacking a DD in the same TF.

This makes very little sense to me because chances are that at the moment of being "hit", the planes are much closer to other ships than they are to their target. I see some sort of rationalle for this if the planes are TBs, for example, but if they are LBs, not only should they not be impacted directly by their target's AA (I dont recall AA mounts being able to elevate that high) but the AA effect should be cumilative as every ship that can bear pops off at them.

@RTR....I think you are correct about the wide spread between IJN ships as per their doctrine, but I still dont see how any incoming strike can avoid being popped off at by at least several ships as theyre coming in. As Parshall says, the effectiveness of such fire is dubious at best but at least its a bit more "fair" than what I'm seing represented in the game.

Onime

[jumper]

I have experienced that too.. But I have also experienced several planes to be shot down during the attack on the ship with nearly no AA (12 only) value. And I think they were shot down by well armed escort in TF.
It might be the AA value is taken from the attacked ship + some AA value of other ships from the same TF (x-y %). BB would have more hardcoded AA defense then DD so during the attack on BB it would have AA value of 600 (ship AA) + something from other ships and DD 50 (ship AA) + something from other ships.
Just guessing.. [:)] No proves..[;)]

to rockmedic109:

I thought the max number of ships in IJN TF is 11 (stupid number and I don´t know how did I come to it) without any AA value being reduced. 15 ships sounds much better to me now. [:'(]

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

As I understand it, if there are more than 15 ships in a tf, there is a reduced AA value on ships >15. I don't know how the code figures this, however.

A Do only x% of AA count if TF has >15 ships?
B Do only x% of AA count on ship #16 and greater in tf?
C Does the full value of the 15 best AA ships count and the others count at a reduced %?
D Some other way of determination that I haven't thought of yet {probably this one}.

It's some sort of combo between B and C. 15 > ship AA adds up, but reduced way..and I think it diminishes when more ships are added. 25 similar ships will have way bigger AA value in same TF than 15 ships, but not as big as 15 ship TF and 10 ship TF values added together.

[rtrapasso]

@RTR....I think you are correct about the wide spread between IJN ships as per their doctrine, but I still dont see how any incoming strike can avoid being popped off at by at least several ships as theyre coming in. As Parshall says, the effectiveness of such fire is dubious at best but at least its a bit more "fair" than what I'm seing represented in the game.

Well, looking at the AA range and effectiveness curves vs. ship spacing (in Shattered Sword), as well as the plots of aircraft attacking (at least at the Battle of Midway), it seems unlikely that any ship but the one under attack is going to be able to contribute to AA defense. In fact, SBDs at Midway were essentially immune to AA fire until they would go into their final dive.

Not only that, but the text (based on the Japanese literature) specifically states as much.

Often, screening ships DID fire their guns, including their main batteries (even with BBs), but it was to attract the attention of the CAP that enemy aircraft were passing by the ship that was firing. They would also lay down smoke as a similar method of attracting attention - those smokescreens are unlikely to be of any other tactical use to anyone 10000+ yds away.

[06 Maestro]

If AA is factored by individual TF’s, what is the advantage of creating carrier escort or escort TF’s? I had assumed such TF’s would add to AA capabilities of a targeted TF-once again, I am confused.

[jeffs]

>escort TF’s
I think (and I could be wrong) these are more for ASW protection for cripples with some AA help