An alternate view point: China over supplied

[RUPD3658]

Several threads recently have discussed the issue of bombing Chineese resources. Many have agrued that this would have been impossible and therefore is gamey. Many have requested that the supply system be changed in China so that there is more automatic supply and less resources that can be bombed.

I am going to present an alternate view here along with some solutions. Please read to the end before flaming me.

In game terms China is over supplied and Japan must bomb resources to contain it. On 12-07-1941 China has a supply need of 2000 per day. It produces 2220 per day from resources and 1005 from Heavy Industry (supplied by 225 oil). This results in 3225 supply being produced per day. In addition there is the 500 from the Burma road bringing this up to 3725 per day. But wait, there is more! Sining, Chungking, and Chengtu each produce 300 bonus supply per day bringing the total up to 4625 per day, more that 2600 extra per day!

Now on 12-07-1941 China has all but 2 of the combat units that it is ever going to get. This was changed due to complaints of China being too easy to take. The AV of Chineese forces is 18,000 vs 13,000 of the CEF and of this about 2,000 is designated to garrison duty. Many of the Chineese units are understregth and disrupted while Japanese units are at full strength.

If Japan ignores China it will grow to a force of about 22,000 AV in 3-4 months and will have the ability to go on the offense by March. LBA will be bombing the crap out of Shanghai in no time.

I am sure we can all agree that China should not be able to be an offensive powerhouse.

The solution of taking away bombable resources and replacing them with automatic supply would create this situatiuon even faster.

My solutions:

House rule fixes:

1. The game has imbalances that favor both sides. Play 2 games (one as each side) and total the points at the end.

2. No unit can move into or out of China without changing HQ. This prevents that 1000 Sally raids. It also prevents the CEF from moving into India of Russia after China falls (if it falls).

3. Override the autovictory in 1943, KDonovan and I have done this in our game. This should give that Allies the 2nd 1/2 of 43 to kick my butt and even the score. Back when the game first came out I was a leading voice calling for the ability to override the auto victory to give the Allies a better chance.

Long term: Modders or WiTP2

1. Change the bombable resources to auto supply but reduce the amount by 50%. China was always near starvation so they should not be able to get more than 2000-2500 per day.

2. Increase the Burma road to 1000 per day. The Burma was road was a vital lifeline. In game terms it is a footnote.

3. Make most Chineese units static. Hard to take but they can't go on the offensive.

4. Change the vp formula. In PacWar there was a multiplier for Allied losses starting in 44. In 44 all losses are x 1.5 vp, 45 x2.0 and 46 X3.0. Public opinion could care less that the Allies hold Tawi Tawi, it is losses that they grow weary of. Also due away with the 43 auto victory.

A quick story to show the risks of changing rules to fix a problem without looking at the big picture:

In 1940 there were no snakes on the island of Guam. During the war a few rat snakes where accidntally brough there in supply shipments and since they had no natural predators they bred like wild. Today Guam has the highest number of snakes per square mile on the planet and is #1 on my list of place to never visit. [X(] In the 50s some peolpe decided to bring in a certain kind of bird (I don't recall the exact breed) to control the snake population. They had an effect but also killed off most of the native birds in the process.

I hate to sound like Al Gore but the moral here is that every change in the game effects every other part of the game. Weakening or strengthening on thing in the game has the unintended effect of weakening or strengthening something else in the game. If China is given more supply in ver 1.9 I am sure that by ver 2.0 we will be requesting something to restrain the Chineese hoards sacking Manchuria.

Again I must present my opinion that WiTP is a game and must be viewed as such. It was never sold as a Historical simulation and I am sure sale would fall by over 50% if it was. No side should have such an unfair advantage as to gaurantee victory. The better player should win.

You may now commense flaming. [:D]

[Nikademus]

Are you able to take a well defended Japanese city/base using the Chinese?

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658
On 12-07-1941 China has a supply need of 2000 per day.

LOL obviously you haven't played as the allies. China's daily requirements are probably double to triple that once combat begins, simply looking at daily requirements before battle is ridiculous, look at how much is needed when combat commences. My opponent bombards almost 80% of my forces by land and air every turn, this keeps their required supply consumption at very high levels even though actual damage caused is negligible.

Look at my AAR, I never lost a battle in China until my supply dried up. Less than 1 year into the game and China has less than 35,000 extra supplies in the entire country. Most combat formations only have about a divisions worth of equipment left.

If the Japanese opponent fails to take the battle to China, then that’s his fault. If he does as my opponent has done, China will not last more than two years guaranteed, even if no land battles are fought. Once supplies dry up Chinese units begin to wither and die, no Japanese land attacks are needed till near the end.

Jim

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Are you able to take a well defended Japanese city/base using the Chinese?

Against both AI and PBEM I have taken Hanoi, Hue, and the outskirts of Peking. Also took those 2 cities East of Hanoi that every Allied player takes in the 1st week of the war. Can't take urban centers but can take clear hexes.

I play stock. Don't know if Mods are different.

[Nikademus]

ok. Was just curious. China troops work best while defending from my experiences. They are practically helpless against strongly entrenched city/bases unless they have an overwhelming numerical advantage. This does help balance things out to a degree.

[Big B]

I concur with Jim.

What's more - why shouldn't China be able to kick some Japanese tail? ...Because in the real war Japan lasted to the end?

Look at the other side of the coin - why should Japan be able to take out China (as is done often in WitP)? - In the real war, Japan was never - ever able to do that....

So, if by some stretch of the imagination, China actually shows some offensive capability - that would be no more unreal than the WitP norm of Japan conquering China.


My two cents...
B

EDIT: Also, let's not forget that only 1/2 of the Chinese Army is even represented in WitP:
18 independant INF DIVs, and 69 INF Corps (each is based on 2 DIVs.) comes out to 156 INF DIVs represented.

ITRW, China had (accoring to the US Army Historical Center) 240 INF DIVs in Corps of two or three DIVs each, plus another 70 INF DIVs not operating in Corps, ...that equals 310 INF DIVs as compared to WitP's 156 INF DIVs. (...also not included in WitP is Chaing's Artillery Park of 900-1300+ guns in Chunking - all of 75mm to 155mm caliber)

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658
On 12-07-1941 China has a supply need of 2000 per day.

LOL obviously you haven't played as the allies. China's daily requirements are probably double to triple that once combat begins, simply looking at daily requirements before battle is ridiculous, look at how much is needed when combat commences. My opponent bombards almost 80% of my forces by land and air every turn, this keeps their required supply consumption at very high levels even though actual damage caused is negligible.

Look at my AAR, I never lost a battle in China until my supply dried up. Less than 1 year into the game and China has less than 35,000 extra supplies in the entire country. Most combat formations only have about a divisions worth of equipment left.

If the Japanese opponent fails to take the battle to China, then that’s his fault. If he does as my opponent has done, China will not last more than two years guaranteed, even if no land battles are fought. Once supplies dry up Chinese units begin to wither and die, no Japanese land attacks are needed till near the end.

Jim

[RUPD3658]

Good points. What my point is overall is that history can not be accuratly simulated by the game. China can be too strong and can be bombed into submission when it could not have been.

If China is going to have the ability to be offensive then it should not be gamey for Japan to bomb resources.

Before I am accused of Fanboyism please note my comments on victory conditions. A balanced game is all I am seeking, not an advantage for one side or the other.

[moses]

If Japan does nothing then the Chinese supply situation will be quite adequate. In a few months China will be operating with essentially unlimited supply. In this case the main concern will not be ground attacks bit air.

My experience on the ground is that Japan can defend adequately. In my last PBEM I flat creamed my Japanese opponent in China. He had several cases where large stacks of his were retreated and by 1943 the front was at Peking and the cities around Shanghie. Still my opponent was able to reestablish a front in what had to be pretty much a worst case scenario.

The main problem will be that bombing from China can be quite dangerous if China has a solid supply situation.

To prevent this:

1.) Mass, occupy and if possible take Changsa early in the game. Even if you can't take it just occupying it stops production there. The Chinese may be able to hold this for a while but they have to send 20+ Corps. These Corps will all be eating double combat supply which has to be shipped in by road from Chungking. Plus they will be taking losses which also must be replaced with supply.

2.) At least occupy Yenen and Wuchow once Changsa is dealt with. This also reduces production.

3.) Try to maintain contact with as much of the Chinese army as possible. This burns supply and keeps them from regaining morale. Bombardment attacks work just fine and won't result in you getting your people killed.

4.) Cut Burma rd.

5.) Do a little strategic bombing. Nothing dramatic. There is no need to lose lots of planes. Just build up Hanoi and then send a raid or two against Kumming once you have a zero squadren available that needs a little OJT.

These are all simple actions with a high probability of success. If you don't get carried away you can do these without taking great losses. China will be neutered and can then be left as a secondary theater.

[Andy Mac]

Im sorry but I disagree China is to easy to take by Japan the supply requirement of Chinese forces is too high and supply too easy to destroy.
 
I am not disputing your figures but how much supply does China lose if it loses all the outer rail cities production either by capture or by enemy forces being present.
 
And I think using the Burma road supply in the total is wrong as it is clsed so early because of the rail link in Burma.
 
Having said that I am not sure what the fix other than restraint is.
 
If you make the supply completely invulnerable and give the Chinese the historical ORBAT then you do end up with an allied juggernaught that I am sure Allied players will use in the same gamey way the the Japanese can at present. It is a no win situation and an impossibe balancing act.
 
I would be inclined to make the non rail city production invulnerable but leave Changsa/Wuchow/Yunan etc as is so that if the Japanese player wants to reduce Chinese supply he can but as its cities he would hope to take thats not so beneficial I mean how many Japanese players destroy Changsa's infrastructure ?
 
So basically make the inner Chinese supply invulnerable and perhaps move it all to Chungking as that would stop Japanese attempts at eliminating China totally but leave the outer cities that Japan could take vulnerable to city bombing (alternatively just remove city bombing as an option for the Japanese and non 4E allied bombers and simplify the whole thing) 

[timtom]

Dunno - In a parallel thread, another player's screaming foul because he's got trouble taking Chungking. That he can get there at all isn't thought a problem, apparently.

I'm yet to see an AAR where the Chinese runs the Japanese out off China on their own. The opposite isn't exactly the case.

[erstad]

I tend to follow Moses' point of view.  I don't want fleets of 4E bombers operating from China.  Nuisance raids against shipping are reasonable, major strategic bombing campaigns are not.  And, like most things, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  I try to kick some early butt in China, take some of the resource-producing cities, do an occasional resource bombing (but not like an all-out campaign, just a little here and there), and let China be a bywater after that.
 
People are free to play whatever kind of game they and their opponent want, but from my point of view:
-  My (allied) opponent should not be able to turn China into a major theatre, particularly for an air war and most particularly for strategic bombing offensives.  Whatever makes up those resource centers in China ain't making bombs for SuperForts.
-  I should not be able to win the war in China.  I will take whatever action I need to to keep China on the defensive, but will not try to blitz China, take Chungking, etc.  (Unless my worthy oppponent vacates Chungking to garrison some other city I want, then I might take it temporarily.  Problem with saying "I would never..." is that it allows someone to unrealistically strip garrisons)

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: erstad

-  My (allied) opponent should not be able to turn China into a major theatre, particularly for an air war and most particularly for strategic bombing offensives. 

14th AF did eventually operate 7 groups in China, XX Bomber Command intermittently adding another four groups - but in fairness only in conjunction with an ongoing and quite extensive airlifting operation.

Whatever makes up those resource centers in China ain't making bombs for SuperForts.

Unlike those fabulous torpedo-growing trees in the DEI, of course [:)]

[racndoc]

The CHS designer's notes on Stock Scenario 15 had just slightly different supply numbers. They counted 4975 Chinese supply per day for a total of 149,250 per month.

Against that, the 73 corps, 18 divisions and 1 tank regiment consumed 69,000 per month(assuming that all units are at max TOE).
This left a surplus of 80,000 per month but you need to subtract out for combat, base construction and repair, building up the LCUs to max TOE and air force maintenance and replacements. Cutting the Burma Road reduces supply by 15,000 per month.

Some of the concerns previously espoused in this thread have been addressed in CHS. First of all, many Chinese units are static. In addition, Chinese supply is now 150,000 per month with most of it intrinsic and not so heavily dependent on resources, oil or HI. In addition, Chiang now has his artillery park of 20 artillery regiments but over half of them are static in Chungking. Finally, the map has been radically redrawn making offensives impractical if not impossible in northern or central China....for both sides. There is no road link between the Japanese troops in southern China and those in north central China. There are 14 Chinese guerilla units that begin the campaign behind Japanese lines and the result is a really fun free for all for both sides.

[mogami]

Hi, I don't think China was starving. At least not before Japanese captured Rangoon and then there is nothing to suggest that the Chinese military was starving. The Chinese tended to horde supply and material and only use it when Japan forced them to.

In 1941 China had defeated the massive Japanese attempt to capture Changsha (Thats the reason the "Dash forward" division is so small at start of game)

If China had been starving Japan would not have provoked the embargo by moving into Indo China to cut that route.

The entire Pacific War is a result of Japan's attempts to cut off China from outside supply and force it to come to terms. Japan did not desire anymore territory in China they just wanted China to acknowledge what they already controled and agree to peace.  The chinese on the other hand knew Japan could never cut them off from supply, could never defeat them with force of arms and would lose any larger war where Japan had to fight USA and western Alliance. In China the main concern was the struggle for power once the Japanese had departed.

Japan had always fought a divided China. China had been in a civil war since 1922 (or there abouts) Had China been united under a central goverment in 1937 I doubt the Japanese would have ever won control of any part of it.

IN WITP the Japanese player has to face a united China but only half the OOB is present.


The problem is not simple
The Chinese could have pushed Japan back if not out however it would have required they suffer loss that they saw no reason to suffer. They knew Japan was leaving (sooner or later) Then the competing Chinese factions would settle up.  It was not that China did not have the means to fight offensive operations but they did not have the inclination. Study the war in China. When Japan launched offensives the Chinese responded and by 1941 they were ALWAYS able to defeat Japan. However they never conducted offensive operations where Japan remained on the defensive.  Late in the war in response to USA bombers the Japanese did mass most of CEA for an offensive. It succeeded in capturing Changsha and other cities but the final result was they lost fisrt the northern area of China and then everything else. (The offensive caught the Chinese by surprise but once they massed forces they defeated the Japanese)

I think if Mao had been the Nationalist and Chaing the communist the Chinese would have been pushing the Japanese out of China by late 1940.

I think we should divide China up into restricted HQ that require being activated like Soviets. Then if the Japanese activate enough of China they find out the truth.
This game has no politics. Japan never offered the Chinese in occupied areas a Chinese leader with actual power and they never offered to improve their condition compared to before Japan occupied the areas.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

The Chinese tended to horde supply and material and only use it when Japan forced them to.

This is the crux to the entire debate. Japan wants China neutered because they fear massive hordes of Chinese bearing down on them (that and they enjoy crushing China) and the allied players simply want China to be survivable.

I’ve said it before, the best solution is to give China its historical OOB but then fix 2/3rds of the formations in the forward cities like Changsa, Wuchow and Yenen so they only come into play if Japan decides to attack them.

Right now China has no hope of attacking Japan and succeeding at all unless the Japanese player is careless with his forces and China has 73 mobile Corps to work with. With Chinas army doubled and then its mobile army cut to 1/3rd you’d be left with only 48 mobile Corps (73 + 73 = 146 Corps, 146/3 = 48.6).

This would keep China from ever becoming a threat to Japan unless Japan freed up lots more Chinese Corps by attacking those fixed formations and displacing them.

As to how much supply to give China, I’d say figure out what their daily requirement is for standing in place and then double it. And make 90% of it non-attackable and China should be ok. If Japan bombards a large percentage of the Chinese army by land and air every turn, China will just barely get by. If Japan fails to keep supply consumption up then it’s on him that suddenly 60 heavy bombers can afford to operate out of Chunking.

Look at my AAR, it is a perfect example of what happens to China if supply consumption is intentionally kept high simply by bombarding as many units as possible every turn. China simply dries up and blows away in the wind after only one year. Supply has to be double peacetime requirements or China is simply unplayable against a good Japanese opponent.

Jim

[ny59giants]

How would increasing the garrison requirements effect game play??  If the Japanese do take most, if not all, of China, it shouldn't be able to expend Political Points to move most of the army to either India or eastern pacific starting in late '42.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: erstad

I tend to follow Moses' point of view.  I don't want fleets of 4E bombers operating from China.  Nuisance raids against shipping are reasonable, major strategic bombing campaigns are not.  And, like most things, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  I try to kick some early butt in China, take some of the resource-producing cities, do an occasional resource bombing (but not like an all-out campaign, just a little here and there), and let China be a bywater after that.

People are free to play whatever kind of game they and their opponent want, but from my point of view:
-  My (allied) opponent should not be able to turn China into a major theatre, particularly for an air war and most particularly for strategic bombing offensives.  Whatever makes up those resource centers in China ain't making bombs for SuperForts.
-  I should not be able to win the war in China.  I will take whatever action I need to to keep China on the defensive, but will not try to blitz China, take Chungking, etc.  (Unless my worthy oppponent vacates Chungking to garrison some other city I want, then I might take it temporarily.  Problem with saying "I would never..." is that it allows someone to unrealistically strip garrisons)

Exactly my point too.

[Big B]

I completely agree with Mogami.

IMHO too many WitP players have a "through the looking glass" view of China, possibly reenforced by the (relative) ease with which Japan in WitP can crush China. I have heard people justify this POV by pointing to the 1944 Japanese offensive to open a land route to SE Asia - as an example of what Japan could have done to China anytime it wished - but I believe that is a gross misperception.

B

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I don't think China was starving. At least not before Japanese captured Rangoon and then there is nothing to suggest that the Chinese military was starving. The Chinese tended to horde supply and material and only use it when Japan forced them to.

In 1941 China had defeated the massive Japanese attempt to capture Changsha (Thats the reason the "Dash forward" division is so small at start of game)

If China had been starving Japan would not have provoked the embargo by moving into Indo China to cut that route.

The entire Pacific War is a result of Japan's attempts to cut off China from outside supply and force it to come to terms. Japan did not desire anymore territory in China they just wanted China to acknowledge what they already controled and agree to peace.  The chinese on the other hand knew Japan could never cut them off from supply, could never defeat them with force of arms and would lose any larger war where Japan had to fight USA and western Alliance. In China the main concern was the struggle for power once the Japanese had departed.

Japan had always fought a divided China. China had been in a civil war since 1922 (or there abouts) Had China been united under a central goverment in 1937 I doubt the Japanese would have ever won control of any part of it.

IN WITP the Japanese player has to face a united China but only half the OOB is present.


The problem is not simple
The Chinese could have pushed Japan back if not out however it would have required they suffer loss that they saw no reason to suffer. They knew Japan was leaving (sooner or later) Then the competing Chinese factions would settle up.  It was not that China did not have the means to fight offensive operations but they did not have the inclination. Study the war in China. When Japan launched offensives the Chinese responded and by 1941 they were ALWAYS able to defeat Japan. However they never conducted offensive operations where Japan remained on the defensive.  Late in the war in response to USA bombers the Japanese did mass most of CEA for an offensive. It succeeded in capturing Changsha and other cities but the final result was they lost fisrt the northern area of China and then everything else. (The offensive caught the Chinese by surprise but once they massed forces they defeated the Japanese)

I think if Mao had been the Nationalist and Chaing the communist the Chinese would have been pushing the Japanese out of China by late 1940.

I think we should divide China up into restricted HQ that require being activated like Soviets. Then if the Japanese activate enough of China they find out the truth.
This game has no politics. Japan never offered the Chinese in occupied areas a Chinese leader with actual power and they never offered to improve their condition compared to before Japan occupied the areas.

[Big B]

I also agree with Jim on the solution.

Oddly enough, on the mod I am working on that is exactly the same conclusion I came to. I am in the middle of doing the OOB changes and the supply changes. We'll see how it works out.

What I find most attractive about it is that China does not become a Juggernaut unless the Japanese player creates it himself, yet left alone China will still be too strong to ignore while off to invade the USSR...it becomes an interesting and intractable problem - as it was in real life.

B

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Mogami

The Chinese tended to horde supply and material and only use it when Japan forced them to.

This is the crux to the entire debate. Japan wants China neutered because they fear massive hordes of Chinese bearing down on them (that and they enjoy crushing China) and the allied players simply want China to be survivable.

I’ve said it before, the best solution is to give China its historical OOB but then fix 2/3rds of the formations in the forward cities like Changsa, Wuchow and Yenen so they only come into play if Japan decides to attack them.

Right now China has no hope of attacking Japan and succeeding at all unless the Japanese player is careless with his forces and China has 73 mobile Corps to work with. With Chinas army doubled and then its mobile army cut to 1/3rd you’d be left with only 48 mobile Corps (73 + 73 = 146 Corps, 146/3 = 48.6).

This would keep China from ever becoming a threat to Japan unless Japan freed up lots more Chinese Corps by attacking those fixed formations and displacing them.

As to how much supply to give China, I’d say figure out what their daily requirement is for standing in place and then double it. And make 90% of it non-attackable and China should be ok. If Japan bombards a large percentage of the Chinese army by land and air every turn, China will just barely get by. If Japan fails to keep supply consumption up then it’s on him that suddenly 60 heavy bombers can afford to operate out of Chunking.
...

Jim