(Bump) Help in USSR - not for RUPD

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KDonovan
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(Bump) Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by KDonovan »

whats the best way to defend USSR?? What are must hold cities? Should a counter-offensive be mounted? if so where?

situation as of now is 3/43. My oppenant has already overrun China and India due to my lack of land combat skill in this game (therefore help will be needed). I'm currently on the offensive in new guinea and central pacific.

There is no state of war right now b/t USSR and Japan as Russia will be activated 30 days prior to the start of hostilities, but i aspected Russia will be activated in the coming weeks, so i just wanted to get a head start on my planning.

So any ideas out there? here's a picture of the current situation

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VSWG
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by VSWG »

"Must read" threads, Section III.E.
tm.asp?m=1274014

[/shameless plug]

Look out for grunts posts. He also made an AAR about an attack on the Soviet Union ("Siberian train wreck", I think).

EDIT: Here it is:
tm.asp?m=1040403
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Nemo121
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by Nemo121 »

You MUST hold everything south of ( and including Iman) Holding stuff north of Iman is very helpful but not absolutely essential. North of Blagoveschenk trying to hold onto territory will probably just cost you more than you gain.
 
So, Blago southward is the ideal perimeter but Iman southward is the essential perimeter. This presupposes that you are able to prevent his bombers just bombing your supply generation capability in that pocket to pieces. If he can destroy your ability to supply yourself then you will fall no matter what else you do.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
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VSWG
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by VSWG »

More Links:

"Russia First, Hirohito."
tm.asp?m=745023

"Invasion Russia III"
tm.asp?m=803528
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by niceguy2005 »

Wow, I'm really going to enjoy this.
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AmiralLaurent
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by AmiralLaurent »

For me the main risk you face is a Japanese juggernaut starting in Mongolia and then taking each base on the railway. By the way with the river crossing = shock attack rule, attacking USSR is harder becasue you alwyas have to cross a river to do this, and can't hope that a huge army will do that in one day. AFAIK all AAR with an invasion of Siberia were done before this rule.

At this stage of the war, you should have all troops prepared 100% and all bases with fort 9, and also a good number of troops in the open.

For me the key of the campain will be to win enough time to enable Allied bombers (both Soviet and US coming from Alaska) to bomb Manchouoko and a part of Japan to rubble...

In red, I have fixed the part of Siberia that you should hold at any cost. Iman is a mountain hex, and is excellent to stop a juggernaut coming south on the railway. Vladivostok has a lot of troops preparing for it and so should be easier to defend. Uglaharmensk is an airfield that can't be pounded to dust by BB and so should be you main air base. The problem is that it may be attacked while bypassing Vladisvostok. So maybe Iman should be you main air base too.

All red arrows penetrating Japanese territory should be seen as probes to test Japanese defences... The only change to stop a juggernaut (except maybe in Iman with a defensive juggernaut of yours) is to divide it, and to do it you must threaten the industrial cities of Manchuoko. You have a lot of tank units, you can use them in the open terrain east of Harbin.

Once your troops will be activated, you will have a month to organize. Move units all along the border to be able to see the concentration of Japanese troops. Move air force support units to where you will probably need them. Change preparation orders from unist in town you won't defend to Iman, or Vladivostok (the two points you don't want to lose).

A problem I had with my Russia game vs Moses was that most of the times Soviet units retreat leaving behind huge piles of supplies that will be really needed. So use the preparation month to set all bomber units to carry supplies from places you won't defend to place you will hold at all costs (remember ? Iman and Vladivostok).

On the side, I will prepare American and Canadian reinforcements in Alaska. Holding the small Soviet base isolated between the Aleutians and the Kuriles will be nice to ferry troops and aircraft, so as soon as the war is engaged use an air bridge to bring at least an US RCT here. Then you may bring US engineers or aviation support to Siberia, whatever is the most useful for you.

By the way what is the supply situation in Siberia. Do you have huge supplies stocks in the main cities, or are you more or less starving? If the first is true, bring units to cities you won't defend and turn replacement on there to use these supplies (if you have replacement off by default).

Edited: I forgot the edited map

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AmiralLaurent
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by AmiralLaurent »

By the way your situation is not the same than in "Invasion Russia III" (me vs moses) for several reasons:

On the bonus side:
_ most of your cities should have fort 9.
_ the river crossing rule will probably help you.
_ you may receive worthy American reinforcements (heavy bombers, Corsairs, etc...)

On the malus side:
_ you will probably face a bigger Army than me (in the "Invasion Russia III" Kwantung Army was reinforced by 10 Div of Southern Army and China Army).
_ IJAAF will have advanced aircraft (Tonies and so on) while Soviet won't be so advanced.
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KDonovan
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by KDonovan »

At this stage of the war, you should have all troops prepared 100% and all bases with fort 9, and also a good number of troops in the open.

prepped?... yes...fort level 9?...no. Despite building forts from day one, Iman and Uglaharmensk are only at fort level 6. Uglaharmensk is about to go to fort level 7, and i've stopped building forts at Iman, to get the level 2 AF to level 4. Should i halt the AF constuction and go back to fort building?
In red, I have fixed the part of Siberia that you should hold at any cost. Iman is a mountain hex, and is excellent to stop a juggernaut coming south on the railway. Vladivostok has a lot of troops preparing for it and so should be easier to defend. Uglaharmensk is an airfield that can't be pounded to dust by BB and so should be you main air base. The problem is that it may be attacked while bypassing Vladisvostok. So maybe Iman should be you main air base too.

All red arrows penetrating Japanese territory should be seen as probes to test Japanese defences... The only change to stop a juggernaut (except maybe in Iman with a defensive juggernaut of yours) is to divide it, and to do it you must threaten the industrial cities of Manchuoko. You have a lot of tank units, you can use them in the open terrain east of Harbin.

Once your troops will be activated, you will have a month to organize. Move units all along the border to be able to see the concentration of Japanese troops. Move air force support units to where you will probably need them. Change preparation orders from unist in town you won't defend to Iman, or Vladivostok (the two points you don't want to lose).

A problem I had with my Russia game vs Moses was that most of the times Soviet units retreat leaving behind huge piles of supplies that will be really needed. So use the preparation month to set all bomber units to carry supplies from places you won't defend to place you will hold at all costs (remember ? Iman and Vladivostok).

On the side, I will prepare American and Canadian reinforcements in Alaska. Holding the small Soviet base isolated between the Aleutians and the Kuriles will be nice to ferry troops and aircraft, so as soon as the war is engaged use an air bridge to bring at least an US RCT here. Then you may bring US engineers or aviation support to Siberia, whatever is the most useful for you.


thanks for the advice. How many units should i put at the river crossing in Mongolia against 52 japanese units though?
By the way what is the supply situation in Siberia. Do you have huge supplies stocks in the main cities, or are you more or less starving? If the first is true, bring units to cities you won't defend and turn replacement on there to use these supplies (if you have replacement off by default).


eh...allright. I have about 80,000 supply at Vladivostock, but only 7000 at Iman. The rest of the countryside is scarce of supply. However, all the way up at Irktusk i have 100,000 supply points. Wish there was a way to get that stuff down south
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KDonovan
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by KDonovan »

On the bonus side:
_ most of your cities should have fort 9.
_ the river crossing rule will probably help you.
_ you may receive worthy American reinforcements

we've agreed to no allied air units in russia at this point in the game, due to the uber-effectiveness of the 4E bombers in this game. so i have to do this without allied help.

Now if he takes Okha, and i retake the base with allied units (non soviet)...then i can base 4E bombers there
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by AmiralLaurent »

You can't hold the river crossing vs 52 units... but having a sizeable force (2-3 div) here will allow you to disrupt at least the first troops crossing it... then you should try to retreat.

In Iman build first the AF... when you will concentrate troops here they may build forts while waiting for Japanese troops.

By the way move as soon as you can the Soviet High HQ to Iman, it will draw 20k supplies from Vladivostok to Iman.

As for bringing supplies from Irtusk... bugger... my only advice will be to use it to upgrade air units and rebuild them during the battles, so you will not lose supplies farther south, Also you can try the supply transport by bombers as I said... It will raise the exp of your bomber units while enabling you to move a bit of your supplies where they will be needed.

Use you month of preliminary warning to move the two Div NW of Vladivostok to this city, or to the rail hexes leading to Manchouoko.
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ctangus
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by ctangus »

I've never played the Soviets, but I have noticed that even when they're inactive you can change their preparation target.
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VSWG
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by VSWG »

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

eh...allright. I have about 80,000 supply at Vladivostock, but only 7000 at Iman. The rest of the countryside is scarce of supply. However, all the way up at Irktusk i have 100,000 supply points. Wish there was a way to get that stuff down south
For one turn, move each and every unit and squadron out of the cities you don't want to have supplies... the supply should move to cities with supply requirements. Then move the troops back in, and (hopefully) only the needed amount of supplies x2 moves back. Worked for me.
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by AmiralLaurent »

ORIGINAL: VSWG
ORIGINAL: KDonovan

eh...allright. I have about 80,000 supply at Vladivostock, but only 7000 at Iman. The rest of the countryside is scarce of supply. However, all the way up at Irktusk i have 100,000 supply points. Wish there was a way to get that stuff down south

For one turn, move each and every unit and squadron out of the cities you don't want to have supplies... the supply should move to cities with supply requirements. Then move the troops back in, and (hopefully) only the needed amount of supplies x2 moves back. Worked for me.

True, you can do it with AC... move many AC to a base S of Irtusk, and supply should move here, then move your mass of AC south and the supply should move again.. etc..

As for the 4E efficiency in WITP, I find that someone having conquered the whole of India and China and preparing to invade USSR using the weird ground model of the game and the limit of the map should not be the one to fix home rules.... I would say if your opponents use Zeroes and other IJNAF units over Russia, or if IJN BB bombard Vladivostok it should be fair game for you to bring US air units to this theater. By the way Soviet have no torpedo bombers IIRC so without Allied AC you can do nothing against IJN BB, while IRL they will have subs, PT, CD guns, mines and torpedo aircraft...

IMOO using heavy bombers at night is gamey enough to be a game breaker, using them in daylight is no more gamey than a juggernaut of 500 000 Japanese advancing at 60 miles a day into the Siberian steppe during the mud season, or Betties finding torpedo everywhere...
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by saj42 »

I haven't got a clue on strategy for this one but :

You mentioned the house rule on 4E bombers - do you a rule on paying the PPs for moving units of restricted commands? - I see very few Kwantung Army units 'in-country' - thats a hell of a lot of PPs to spend moving those 52 units over the border![X(]
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KDonovan
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by KDonovan »

You mentioned the house rule on 4E bombers - do you a rule on paying the PPs for moving units of restricted commands? - I see very few Kwantung Army units 'in-country' - thats a hell of a lot of PPs to spend moving those 52 units over the border

he can't move Kwantung Army units out of Manchuria without paying PPs. Since its 1943...i'm sure he's accumulated quite enough to move at least 2-3 Divs out.

more likely explanation for the lack of units within manchuria, is i haven't been able to detect them yet, as i can fly any recon missions as of now
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by VSWG »

For reasons that will become apparent soon, I'll add a list of all AARs I found that deal with an invasion of the Soviet Union to this thread:

"Siberian Train Wreck Vol. 1" grunt6971 playing head to head
tm.asp?m=1040403

"Invasion Russia." Moses playing head-to-head
tm.asp?m=746150

"Invasion Russia II." Moses playing head-to-head
tm.asp?m=752264

"Invasion Russia III." Moses vs. Admiral Laurent
tm.asp?m=803528

"Russia First, Hirohito." 2ndACR playing head-to-head
tm.asp?m=745023

Keep Admiral Laurent's disclaimer in mind:
ORIGINAL:  AmiralLaurent

By the way your situation is not the same than in "Invasion Russia III" (me vs moses) for several reasons:

On the bonus side:
_ most of your cities should have fort 9.
_ the river crossing rule will probably help you.
_ you may receive worthy American reinforcements (heavy bombers, Corsairs, etc...)

On the malus side:
_ you will probably face a bigger Army than me (in the "Invasion Russia III" Kwantung Army was reinforced by 10 Div of Southern Army and China Army).
_ IJAAF will have advanced aircraft (Tonies and so on) while Soviet won't be so advanced.
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by Dino »

Bump

EDIT: Oops...wrong thread.
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KDonovan
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Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by KDonovan »

Bump

Hello everyone, its been 9 months since this thread began....and its now June, 1944 gametime.......and once again i'm faced with the real possibilty of a USSR invasion....in which i need some help (since i suck at land combat in this game). First to brief everyone...

last time the invasion of the USSR was called off because RUPD realized (according to our house rules), that he couldn't use the CEA outside China unless he paid the PP's for them. Unfortunately i have now lost all of China, so the CEA is free to go anywhere. So Russia is now up against the Kwantung and CEA Army. My oppenant will give me 30 days notice before any attack on Russia, so i still have time, as there hasn't been any notice of an attack. But as you can see by the screen shot...the build up has begun.

Last time i was faced with this situation the buildup occured in the north, and it appeared the oppenants plan was to swing around to Vladivostok in a great right hook (see the map by AmiralLaurent). Now it appears the opposite is going to happen...where the buildup is in the south and my oppenant is gonna sweep up to the north in a great left hook.

To me i appeared screwed. i have about 80,000 supply at Vladivostok w/ level 9, but i'm not sure how many troops i can get down there to defend the base in the 30 days i have to move them. Meanwhile theres will be 100 units breathing down my neck. Furthurmore its a clear hex, so theres not much defense bonus, and second...its a coastal hex, so i will suffer from IJN BB bombardments. So i've developed Uglaharmensk into a secondary base w/ a level 5 AF and level 9 forts....as i believe Vladivostok is doomed. Unfortunately what i need is supply and there is 100,000 supply sitting up in Irktusk...but i can't seem to dislodge that. So this got me thinking if Irktusk might be a better last stand than Vladivostok.

Thinking outloud, i'm wondering if it would be beneificial to me to draw the CEA and Kwantung Army north to Irktusk....then i can use the 25 Allied Divisions in the Central Pacific and land somewhere in China, and make a push to either Chengtu or Chungking while the majority of the CEA is busy in Russia. If i liberated one of those cities, the entire Chinese army would reappear to bolster the offensive.

Just for completeness sake i own all of Formosa, most of the Kuriles, all of the Philipinnes (except Luzon), and part of the Mariana's. So i would be in position to invade China....or even the HI

Anyways...any thoughts or idea's?? Currently the plan is just to write off the the Russians, and just continue with my allied assualts on retaking India and Invading Okinawa. But if anyone thinks the Russians can be saved or i can take advantage of the Japanese focuse on Manchuria...let me know.





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niceguy2005
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by niceguy2005 »

I need to get caught up on your AAR with RUPD.

I wouldn't sweat this. It is like the RL Japan's last ditch offensive in China, it won't mean anything. Dig in in Russia and keep driving on Tokyo.

I would only invade India if you had a plan to get to Karachi fast. I assume that RUPD conquered India and you have a ton of reinforcements stacked up in the queue waiting for one of you bases to be liberated. Otherwise anything not aimed at Tokyo is just a sideshow.
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KDonovan
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RE: Help in USSR - not for RUPD

Post by KDonovan »

I need to get caught up on your AAR with RUPD.

I wouldn't sweat this. It is like the RL Japan's last ditch offensive in China, it won't mean anything. Dig in in Russia and keep driving on Tokyo.

I would only invade India if you had a plan to get to Karachi fast. I assume that RUPD conquered India and you have a ton of reinforcements stacked up in the queue waiting for one of you bases to be liberated. Otherwise anything not aimed at Tokyo is just a sideshow.


Yeah, that seems like the most sensible idea. Just feel bad leaving the Russians to be crushed when allied armies are so close. But best to just concentrate on the drive to Toyko and not get side tracked.

Any ideas on the best defense for the Russians, though?....Vladivostok?, Irktusk?...or elsewhere?
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