Is LCU Morale Fixed in AE?

[herwin]

I'm into April 1943 in my current game, and almost all of my LCUs in Burma, Thailand, Taiwan, parts of Manchuria, and the conquered areas have morales of 20-40, despite being located in most cases in developed bases. Using witptracker to investigate, this seems to be because the disruption never drops below 10. I thought developed bases were immune to the effects of malaria and weather. This implies I have to redeploy a long way to recover morale. INT WTF K.

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: herwin

I'm into April 1943 in my current game, and almost all of my LCUs in Burma, Thailand, Taiwan, parts of Manchuria, and the conquered areas have morales of 20-40, despite being located in most cases in developed bases. Using witptracker to investigate, this seems to be because the disruption never drops below 10. I thought developed bases were immune to the effects of malaria and weather. This implies I have to redeploy a long way to recover morale. INT WTF K.

I brought this up soon after AE was announced in the following thread:

Malaria and Morale

It remains unchanged in WitP:AE per the most recent dev comments in the thread.

[Q-Ball]

This is a pet peeve of mine. I have mentioned before, my grandfather's unit spent nearly 3 years exclusively in "Malaria" zones, yet morale was just fine. Sometimes that meant watching movies and drinking beer in Biak, not exactly morale-sapping activities.

Morale should degrade for being in Combat, not just for being in New Guinea.

Not a deal breaker though.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

This is a pet peeve of mine. I have mentioned before, my grandfather's unit spent nearly 3 years exclusively in "Malaria" zones, yet morale was just fine. Sometimes that meant watching movies and drinking beer in Biak, not exactly morale-sapping activities.

Morale should degrade for being in Combat, not just for being in New Guinea.

Not a deal breaker though.

In the absence of combat, it should converge to some non-zero value representative of where the unit is stationed, how well they're supplied, and the quality of the troops. Right now, it either moves linearly to 0% or 100%. That's stupid.

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

This is a pet peeve of mine. I have mentioned before, my grandfather's unit spent nearly 3 years exclusively in "Malaria" zones, yet morale was just fine. Sometimes that meant watching movies and drinking beer in Biak, not exactly morale-sapping activities.

Morale should degrade for being in Combat, not just for being in New Guinea.

Not a deal breaker though.

In the absence of combat, it should converge to some non-zero value representative of where the unit is stationed, how well they're supplied, and the quality of the troops. Right now, it either moves linearly to 0% or 100%. That's stupid.

My father served with base logistics units on the northern New Guinea coast (Dobadura and Finschafen). He has mentioned suffering close to 50% casualties due to disease, but nothing at all on morale problems. Perhaps this could be better modeled by having a certain amount of spontaneous disabling of units in disease prone areas with supply being eaten to get them undisabled. This would mimic the need to be constantly shuttling replacements in and getting the sick out.

[Chad Harrison]

All the above comments are very valid, and were brought up by myself and others a year ago. Disablements are fine and dandy. Morale loss should come to some maximum point, and then stop. Now that we know for sure that morale does play a large (huge?) part in combat resolutions, it is even more important that this be addressed.
 
But, let me stress that by no means do I see this a some super critical, game ruining feature. Its just one of those things that if the dev team gets a chance after release, it would be nice to see it addressed.

[BigJ62]

In March and July of 2008 I answered this question.

I ran a test today with two units, one at Bataan (malarial) and another 1 hex east of PM in a non-base malarial hex. Both had plenty of supplies. I set both units morale to 10, disruption to 80, fatigue to 80, disablement to 25% and both had plenty of supplies and I put both units in rest mode. Game started at 12/7/41 and by 12/22/41 the unit at Bataan morale was 12 (disruption must be below a certain value before morale will improve), disruption 4, fatigue 12 and devices are slowly repairing. The unit close to PM morale was 12, disruption 4, fatigue 12 and devices are repairing slowly.

So my answer is still the same as it was in March 2008, there are no morale problems with land units in AE.

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

All the above comments are very valid, and were brought up by myself and others a year ago. Disablements are fine and dandy. Morale loss should come to some maximum point, and then stop. Now that we know for sure that morale does play a large (huge?) part in combat resolutions, it is even more important that this be addressed.

But, let me stress that by no means do I see this a some super critical, game ruining feature. Its just one of those things that if the dev team gets a chance after release, it would be nice to see it addressed.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

My father served with base logistics units on the northern New Guinea coast (Dobadura and Finschafen). He has mentioned suffering close to 50% casualties due to disease, but nothing at all on morale problems. Perhaps this could be better modeled by having a certain amount of spontaneous disabling of units in disease prone areas with supply being eaten to get them undisabled. This would mimic the need to be constantly shuttling replacements in and getting the sick out.

I wonder if he ever supplied my Gramps, because he was at both of those bases. My Gramps was an L-4 observation pilot attached to the artillery (picture below, that uniform is his Lt Col of Univ of ILL ROTC, thus the strange insignia). Was at ALOT of bases with the 41st Division.

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

My father served with base logistics units on the northern New Guinea coast (Dobadura and Finschafen). He has mentioned suffering close to 50% casualties due to disease, but nothing at all on morale problems. Perhaps this could be better modeled by having a certain amount of spontaneous disabling of units in disease prone areas with supply being eaten to get them undisabled. This would mimic the need to be constantly shuttling replacements in and getting the sick out.

I wonder if he ever supplied my Gramps, because he was at both of those bases. My Gramps was an L-4 observation pilot attached to the artillery (picture below, that uniform is his Lt Col of Univ of ILL ROTC, thus the strange insignia). Was at ALOT of bases with the 41st Division.

He was sent to Dobadura in 1944 as a brand new ROTC 2nd Lt where his first command was a refrigeration unit. One of their critical duties was, as I recall, to maintain a cold case of beer per man per month. If the army could do that at a godforsaken hellhole like Dobadura in the middle of a war, they were taking morale pretty seriously. Since you mentioned beer earlier, he probably did supply your Gramps.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

In March and July of 2008 I answered this question.

I ran a test today with two units, one at Bataan (malarial) and another 1 hex east of PM in a non-base malarial hex. Both had plenty of supplies. I set both units morale to 10, disruption to 80, fatigue to 80, disablement to 25% and both had plenty of supplies and I put both units in rest mode. Game started at 12/7/41 and by 12/22/41 the unit at Bataan morale was 12 (disruption must be below a certain value before morale will improve), disruption 4, fatigue 12 and devices are slowly repairing. The unit close to PM morale was 12, disruption 4, fatigue 12 and devices are repairing slowly.

So my answer is still the same as it was in March 2008, there are no morale problems with land units in AE.

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

All the above comments are very valid, and were brought up by myself and others a year ago. Disablements are fine and dandy. Morale loss should come to some maximum point, and then stop. Now that we know for sure that morale does play a large (huge?) part in combat resolutions, it is even more important that this be addressed.

But, let me stress that by no means do I see this a some super critical, game ruining feature. Its just one of those things that if the dev team gets a chance after release, it would be nice to see it addressed.

Perhaps, but if they haven't fixed the morale model, AE will be unplayable in malarial areas for the 1944 campaigns. I've posted a bug report to the 1.807 discussion.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

In March and July of 2008 I answered this question.

I ran a test today with two units, one at Bataan (malarial) and another 1 hex east of PM in a non-base malarial hex. Both had plenty of supplies. I set both units morale to 10, disruption to 80, fatigue to 80, disablement to 25% and both had plenty of supplies and I put both units in rest mode. Game started at 12/7/41 and by 12/22/41 the unit at Bataan morale was 12 (disruption must be below a certain value before morale will improve), disruption 4, fatigue 12 and devices are slowly repairing. The unit close to PM morale was 12, disruption 4, fatigue 12 and devices are repairing slowly.

So my answer is still the same as it was in March 2008, there are no morale problems with land units in AE.

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

All the above comments are very valid, and were brought up by myself and others a year ago. Disablements are fine and dandy. Morale loss should come to some maximum point, and then stop. Now that we know for sure that morale does play a large (huge?) part in combat resolutions, it is even more important that this be addressed.

But, let me stress that by no means do I see this a some super critical, game ruining feature. Its just one of those things that if the dev team gets a chance after release, it would be nice to see it addressed.

Perhaps, but if they haven't fixed the morale model, AE will be unplayable in malarial areas for the 1944 campaigns. I've posted a bug report to the 1.807 discussion.

I agree that the morale model is one of those things that "doesn´t work" in WITP but why on earth should AE be unplayable in malarial areas? This would imply that WITP is also unplayable in malarial areas but it is clearly NOT unplayable.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I agree that the morale model is one of those things that "doesn´t work" in WITP but why on earth should AE be unplayable in malarial areas? This would imply that WITP is also unplayable in malarial areas but it is clearly NOT unplayable.

Actually it is after early 1943. With morale in the twenties (and in the teens and below in 1944), the historical campaigns in Burma cannot be played out. This also affects Manchuria in 1945 and Taiwan and the Philippines in 1944. (The USN debated landing in Taiwan or Leyte in late 1944.)

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I agree that the morale model is one of those things that "doesn´t work" in WITP but why on earth should AE be unplayable in malarial areas? This would imply that WITP is also unplayable in malarial areas but it is clearly NOT unplayable.

Actually it is after early 1943. With morale in the twenties (and in the teens and below in 1944), the historical campaigns in Burma cannot be played out. This also affects Manchuria in 1945 and Taiwan and the Philippines in 1944. (The USN debated landing in Taiwan or Leyte in late 1944.)

why? Can you name one AAR that went through 43 or later that had the ground combat totally break down in these areas due to morale issues? I had games (PBEMs) going into mid to late 44 and NEVER had a ground campaign breaking down due to morale issues. Never. And I´ve never heard about that in the last 4 years. [&:]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I agree that the morale model is one of those things that "doesn´t work" in WITP but why on earth should AE be unplayable in malarial areas? This would imply that WITP is also unplayable in malarial areas but it is clearly NOT unplayable.

Actually it is after early 1943. With morale in the twenties (and in the teens and below in 1944), the historical campaigns in Burma cannot be played out. This also affects Manchuria in 1945 and Taiwan and the Philippines in 1944. (The USN debated landing in Taiwan or Leyte in late 1944.)

why? Can you name one AAR that went through 43 or later that had the ground combat totally break down in these areas due to morale issues? I had games (PBEMs) going into mid to late 44 and NEVER had a ground campaign breaking down due to morale issues. Never. And I´ve never heard about that in the last 4 years. [&:]

I'm currently watching morale issues dominate in Burma (mid-1943).

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: herwin




Actually it is after early 1943. With morale in the twenties (and in the teens and below in 1944), the historical campaigns in Burma cannot be played out. This also affects Manchuria in 1945 and Taiwan and the Philippines in 1944. (The USN debated landing in Taiwan or Leyte in late 1944.)

why? Can you name one AAR that went through 43 or later that had the ground combat totally break down in these areas due to morale issues? I had games (PBEMs) going into mid to late 44 and NEVER had a ground campaign breaking down due to morale issues. Never. And I´ve never heard about that in the last 4 years. [&:]

I'm currently watching morale issues dominate in Burma (mid-1943).

how does this play out? What do you mean with dominate? Let´s say you have an Army with 3000 assault points and all are fully prepped, have ample supply and a morale of 25, your Army will surely not attack with 750 assault points. At least I have never seen that. To be honest, I´ve seen a lot of things in the couple of thousand hours being spent playing this game but I´ve never seen morale being the factor to have any real influence in ground combat. Morale affecting my fighter or bomber crews resulting in seeing them turn back, yes, but my divisions being combat ineffective, no.

Don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to critizice you nor do I want to start a flame war, I have just never seen any evidence that morale is really influencing ground war in WITP. And if it does, well, your opponent will have exactly the same - low - morale in 43 or 44 or 45.

[herwin]

LCU morale affects:

movement rate
combat firepower
losses
odds of attack
willingness to enter enemy-held hexes

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

In March and July of 2008 I answered this question.

I ran a test today with two units, one at Bataan (malarial) and another 1 hex east of PM in a non-base malarial hex. Both had plenty of supplies. I set both units morale to 10, disruption to 80, fatigue to 80, disablement to 25% and both had plenty of supplies and I put both units in rest mode. Game started at 12/7/41 and by 12/22/41 the unit at Bataan morale was 12 (disruption must be below a certain value before morale will improve), disruption 4, fatigue 12 and devices are slowly repairing. The unit close to PM morale was 12, disruption 4, fatigue 12 and devices are repairing slowly.

So my answer is still the same as it was in March 2008, there are no morale problems with land units in AE.

Thanks for the reply once again and testing it once again. Much like the new A2A combat system, I am sure its just something that we need to see to become more comfortable with.

Thanks again for taking the time to run a test.

[Grotius]

Slightly off-topic: Didn't someone run a test indicating that fatigue recovery was actually faster outside a base in a malarial area than inside a base? Was that you, BigJ62?

[BigJ62]

Don’t think it was me, but as you can see I ran the test in both types of hexes and Witpx1 I avoided Bataan like the plague now obviously no longer a problem.

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Slightly off-topic: Didn't someone run a test indicating that fatigue recovery was actually faster outside a base in a malarial area than inside a base? Was that you, BigJ62?

[BigJ62]

Not sure what you mean by ‘they’. I am a developer on the land team of AE and I have been working in all areas of code concerning land units for quite a while including morale and this has been updated/improved/enhanced and debugged.

There are no morale problems with land units in AE, what was once a perceived problem in Witpx1 is no longer present in AE.

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

In March and July of 2008 I answered this question.

I ran a test today with two units, one at Bataan (malarial) and another 1 hex east of PM in a non-base malarial hex. Both had plenty of supplies. I set both units morale to 10, disruption to 80, fatigue to 80, disablement to 25% and both had plenty of supplies and I put both units in rest mode. Game started at 12/7/41 and by 12/22/41 the unit at Bataan morale was 12 (disruption must be below a certain value before morale will improve), disruption 4, fatigue 12 and devices are slowly repairing. The unit close to PM morale was 12, disruption 4, fatigue 12 and devices are repairing slowly.

So my answer is still the same as it was in March 2008, there are no morale problems with land units in AE.

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

All the above comments are very valid, and were brought up by myself and others a year ago. Disablements are fine and dandy. Morale loss should come to some maximum point, and then stop. Now that we know for sure that morale does play a large (huge?) part in combat resolutions, it is even more important that this be addressed.

But, let me stress that by no means do I see this a some super critical, game ruining feature. Its just one of those things that if the dev team gets a chance after release, it would be nice to see it addressed.

Perhaps, but if they haven't fixed the morale model, AE will be unplayable in malarial areas for the 1944 campaigns. I've posted a bug report to the 1.807 discussion.