Teleporting supply after patch!? (no maikarant)

[Grotius]

I'm playing a PBEM of Scenario 2 (Hakko Ichiu) as Japan. On the first turn after I applied the patch, I have noticed something very troubling: Cam Ranh Bay's supply jumped from about 200,000 to 450,000 supply -- apparently at the expense of every base to the west of it, including everything in Malaya, Bangkok and Saigon. Bases in Malaya and Vietnam lost as much as 3/4 of their supply. I have spent a lot of time (and lost a few ships to subs) supplying Malaya, so needless to say, I'm not happy.

I'm seeing similar problems in China, the Philippines, and the Home Islands. No problems in islands not connected to one another by roads/rail -- the problem seems to be with connected land bases.

Here are some numbers, from Tracker, comparing turn 20 to turn 21 (we're in late Dec 41). I haven't seen any jumps like this up to the point in the game.

Malaya/Thailand/Vietnam/China:

Singora: 28,776 to 9,284
Kota Bharu: 27,352 to 8,174
Kompong Trach: 25,832 to 5,312
Alor Star: 4,260 to 2,741
Patani: 5,732 to 1,760
Bangkok: 59,603 to 40,524 (even though I had a TF unloading supply there)
Kompong Chang: 4,233 to 1,255
Saigon: 93,033 to 45,300

Cam Ranh Bay: Changed from 214,373 to 429,252. No TF unloading there.
Hong Kong: 22,582 to 68,937
Canton: 34,930 to 10,492 - sigh
Wuchang: 7,000 to 10,000
Port Arthur: 12,091 to 183,118 -- that's not a typo! a 1000% increase in one turn.

In the Home Islands, Tokyo suddenly gained 300,000 supply, again at the expense of other bases, including several that were trying to repair expanded factories:

Tokyo: 1,380,571 to 1,694,306
Yokohama: 32,290 to 10,575
Hiroshima: 33,147 to 7,408 -- even though I'm trying to repair an expanded factory there
Kobe: 27,000 down to 5,000
Shimonoseki: 75,126 to 44,961
Fukuoka: 62,823 to 43,821
Ominato: 14,770 to 4,403

In the Philippines/Formosa, smaller oddities, but still odd.

Takao: From 70,704 up to 78,596
Aparri - which is completely unoccupied now (I've moved everything south to Tuguegaro): 6,973 to 13,853 - it should be going down, not up. And yet:
Tuguegaro: 9,873 to 2,956
Vigan stayed the same
Takao: 70,704 to 78,596
Taihoku: 2,541 to 786
Lingayen: grew a bit, but a TF is unloading there, so that was expected

No problems at island bases like Truk, Kwajalein, Wake, etc. Also, my total supply (as reported by Tracker) seems right: from 4,805,636 on turn 20 to 4,802,214 on Turn 21 -- consistent with the decline in previous turns. (Remember, I'm playing Scenario 2; thus the large numbers.)

Perhaps this will correct itself magically after a turn? I'm most concerned about the teleportation of supply from Malaya to Cam Ranh Bay, though. My opponent has patrolled that route aggressively with subs, and I've lost not a few ships putting supply into Singora etc -- and unloading there takes time, as those are small ports. I really don't want to have to do it all over again.

Is anyone else seeing this?

[Grotius]

I'm still studying this, but I'm also seeing strange fuel movements. These aren't as troubling because I haven't moved much fuel to Malaya/Philippines, but I thought I'd mention them in case they are part of the same issue.

Tokyo gained 180,000 fuel in one turn. Other Home-Island bases like Shimizu lost 3/4 of their fuel.
Bangkok: 35,000 to 12,000 fuel
Saigon: 113,000 to 120,000 fuel
Cam Ranh Bay: 212,000 to 293,000 fuel
Port Arthur: 116,000 to 350,000 fuel -- in one turn.
Shanghai: 139,373 down to 55,980. Where did it go? To Port Arthur?
Total fuel level seems correct. Again, it's the distribution that's wacky (though I can live with this fuel redistribution more than I can with the loss of supply in Malaya).

The patch notes say:

51. Rationalized supply draw rules.

And there was also a change to the 'supply requested' button. Perhaps the intent was to concentrate supply and fuel in big production centers to ensure that factories don't sit idle there. That may make sense for Tokyo, but it certainly doesn't make sense to suck supply backward from Malaya to Cam Ranh Bay.

Now, is it possible that my bases in Malaya will gradually recover this supply overland, via roads and rail from Bangkok/Saigon/Cam Ran Bayh? But even if this happens, isn't there some wastage when supply travels overland over such long distances? And in any case, I've spent time and ships moving that supply by ship, losing some to submarines; it's disheartening, to say the least, to see 2/3 of it returned to Indochina in one turn.

Could other PBEM players please check their supply and fuel distribution?

[treespider]

Its tied to Port Size. Cam Ranh is the largest port in the area.

For Hiroshima use your supply toggle to up the supply - the base will then try to maintain x3 this level.

[Grotius]

Thanks for your reply. I'm not worried about Hiroshima -- I can use the button to regain its supply. But what about Malaya? The game just undid much of the work I did transporting supply from Vietnam to Malaya. Victoria Point is now in the "pink" for supply because of this. Kota Bharu, with a full complement of Sallies and other aircraft, is now under 10,000 supply after I spent two weeks building it up over 30,000. I sure wish the patch notes had warned me that the patch was about to undo all the work I did (and ships lost to subs) transporting supplies from Vietnam to Malaya.

So, what to do about Malaya now? Should I just not bother with seaborne supply from Vietnam to Singora, and use the request-supply buttons instead? If I use the buttons to gather supply by land, won't I pay wastage cost, especially as Cam Ranh Bay is not connected by rail to Malaya??

My opponent has offered to un-patch and go back a turn. I'm tempted to take him up on it, unless someone can explain to me how I get my supply back to Malaya, where I moved it in the first place.

[jwilkerson]

Yup the supply (et al) movement priorities changed dramatically with patch 03. I'm not sure I like them better - but that might be because I was used to the old way. I'm sure the new changes were due to "forum advisors" who clamored for these types of changes. Once we get used to it, maybe we will like it better. It does seem to solve the age old (from day one of WITP) issues of leaving substantial amounts of supply, etc. at island bases where we can't get to it. But as you say, this comes at the expense, at least temporarily of greater micro-management to get the supply (etc) back where we had taken it (and needed it!).

I just assume the laws of physics were changed - and now we are going back to war with the new laws of physics! [:D]

[Grotius]

Hehe, well my opponent is also confronting the same problem, so I suppose it evens out. We're both going to try fussing with the request-supply buttons to see if we can fix things. If those buttons work as advertised, in some ways it will make my job easier -- I won't bother sending any supply by sea to Malaya or Burma at all. So I'm starting to see there is a silver lining.

[witpqs]

I like better what I am seeing after the patch with only one small exception. After all bases have got their 3 x supplies required, it seems that ALL remaining supply moves to the national capital (or largest base, I'm not sure how the destination is chosen). This results in wastage if you are unloading supply at smaller bases and there was no need for it to move. As I said, only a small negative.

Overall I like the post-patch supply movement much better. I have found the draw-supply buttons to work much more predictably. Whether it was actually true or not, before the patch it seemed like small changes in the supply-draw button resulted in large supply movement and it was hard to get what you wanted.

Definitely a thumbs up.

[aoffen]

Joe
Any chance of a description of how the new supply changes work from the developers responsible?
Regards
Andrew

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Hehe, well my opponent is also confronting the same problem, so I suppose it evens out. We're both going to try fussing with the request-supply buttons to see if we can fix things. If those buttons work as advertised, in some ways it will make my job easier -- I won't bother sending any supply by sea to Malaya or Burma at all. So I'm starting to see there is a silver lining.

All of my pre-release "whines" were fixable by using the buttons - though the change over was a bit of a "jolt". In several places supply I'd worked hard to move somewhere got moved far from where I'd moved it - but one turn of buttons got the supply back where I needed it. Perhaps the difference is that before I moved the supply where I wanted it with ships and planes - now I may be using the buttons more - I hardly used the buttons at all previously.

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Hehe, well my opponent is also confronting the same problem, so I suppose it evens out. We're both going to try fussing with the request-supply buttons to see if we can fix things. If those buttons work as advertised, in some ways it will make my job easier -- I won't bother sending any supply by sea to Malaya or Burma at all. So I'm starting to see there is a silver lining.

All of my pre-release "whines" were fixable by using the buttons - though the change over was a bit of a "jolt". In several places supply I'd worked hard to move somewhere got moved far from where I'd moved it - but one turn of buttons got the supply back where I needed it. Perhaps the difference is that before I moved the supply where I wanted it with ships and planes - now I may be using the buttons more - I hardly used the buttons at all previously.

What every happened to the supply manual?

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: aoffen

Joe
Any chance of a description of how the new supply changes work from the developers responsible?
Regards
Andrew

I think we've already seen that in several posts over the past month - but basically what's being said on this thread is it - a three x to what the button is asking for with the rest going to the big ports. To get a feel for how it works - try it out!

ORIGINAL: pad152
What every happened to the supply manual?

Hopefully it is stored away properly in the G4 manual storage area!

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: pad152
What every happened to the supply manual?

Hopefully it is stored away properly in the G4 manual storage area!

Is that what happened to the Tutorial as well?

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Is that what happened to the Tutorial as well?

Nah, I think that one got hung up in a congressional budget commitee! [:D]

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: pad152

Is that what happened to the Tutorial as well?

Nah, I think that one got hung up in a congressional budget commitee! [:D]

Good one![:)]

[pompack]

I have done some extensive testing of supply movement with the latest patch (or at least the beta version so hopefully this part has not changed). As usual it is hard to isolate things, but this is how I THINK it works. I really, really wish that someone who knows how it works will respond and correct me. Please.

First, what changed (at a high level)
Negative: supply in excess of 3x requirement will now flow to the largest port within supply range. This is not a tragedy since you can (and should) manipulate the requirement with the supply buttons. It is a pain since I find it advisable to set a supply boost at virtually every base.
Positive: Supply flows to LCUs in a much, much more efficient manner than it used to. Since the primary purpose of a supply “dump” is to support combat units, this is a very good thing.

The Process (this explanation is grossly simplified since it ignores the three phase nature of supply movement; however this simplified explanation is till valid if you consider it is a summary of what actually happens over three successive days. Also it is based upon testing in areas where there was no supply “throttle”, e.g. NOT around Darwin)

Note that every movement of supply is subject to supply wastage as a function of the length of the supply path movement

1. Every LCU is supplied from the nearest (in MP) base as long as that base has positive supply. Note that this may drive the supply at the base to zero; you will not see this happen since later steps may replenish the supply. If the nearest base has no supply, then the next nearest base will provide it supply up to the maximum supply length for that phase.
2. Once every LCU has been supplied, every base with less than 1x requirement will attempt to draw supply (up to that level) from each base that has more than 3x requirement and is within supply range (nearest first)
3. Once each base has had the opportunity to draw supply to the 1x requirement level, each base with less than 3x requirement will attempt to draw supply up to that level using the same procedure of step #2.
4. Once each base has had the opportunity to draw up to the 3x requirement level, every base with more than 3x requirement remaining will move that excess to the largest port within supply range.
EDIT: #4 is not quite true since I have found a case where the "largest port" may not be within supply range of a given base. If this occurs, that base can retain a supply level in excess of 3x requirement. I have no idea how the "largest port" is chosen.

The order in which LCUs are supplied, and (more significantly) the order in which bases are supplied does not seem to relate to geographic location. I suspect that it is based upon the ID codes.

Now I found that there is a bit of randomness in the final supply levels (especially at the LCU level) so the process seems to move a bit more than the minimum. This is complicated by the three phase nature of the overall supply process since some turns a given unit or base may not reach its target; however I found that each reached its target at least once every three days (and usually every day if there was ample supply).

[undercovergeek]

i think its a brilliantly implemented system - at the start of a game BUT i have paid in blood, ships and time to get supply and fuel to some of these 'lesser' bases only to find 6 months into a PBEM that these bases are now stripped of the very supply i shipped in! Very frustrating

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: pompack

I have done some extensive testing of supply movement with the latest patch (or at least the beta version so hopefully this part has not changed). As usual it is hard to isolate things, but this is how I THINK it works. I really, really wish that someone who knows how it works will respond and correct me. Please.

First, what changed (at a high level)
Negative: supply in excess of 3x requirement will now flow to the largest port within supply range. This is not a tragedy since you can (and should) manipulate the requirement with the supply buttons. It is a pain since I find it advisable to set a supply boost at virtually every base.
Positive: Supply flows to LCUs in a much, much more efficient manner than it used to. Since the primary purpose of a supply “dump” is to support combat units, this is a very good thing.

The Process (this explanation is grossly simplified since it ignores the three phase nature of supply movement; however this simplified explanation is till valid if you consider it is a summary of what actually happens over three successive days. Also it is based upon testing in areas where there was no supply “throttle”, e.g. NOT around Darwin)

Note that every movement of supply is subject to supply wastage as a function of the length of the supply path movement

1. Every LCU is supplied from the nearest (in MP) base as long as that base has positive supply. Note that this may drive the supply at the base to zero; you will not see this happen since later steps may replenish the supply. If the nearest base has no supply, then the next nearest base will provide it supply up to the maximum supply length for that phase.
2. Once every LCU has been supplied, every base with less than 1x requirement will attempt to draw supply (up to that level) from each base that has more than 3x requirement and is within supply range (nearest first)
3. Once each base has had the opportunity to draw supply to the 1x requirement level, each base with less than 3x requirement will attempt to draw supply up to that level using the same procedure of step #2.
4. Once each base has had the opportunity to draw up to the 3x requirement level, every base with more than 3x requirement remaining will move that excess to the largest port within supply range.
EDIT: #4 is not quite true since I have found a case where the "largest port" may not be within supply range of a given base. If this occurs, that base can retain a supply level in excess of 3x requirement. I have no idea how the "largest port" is chosen.

The order in which LCUs are supplied, and (more significantly) the order in which bases are supplied does not seem to relate to geographic location. I suspect that it is based upon the ID codes.

Now I found that there is a bit of randomness in the final supply levels (especially at the LCU level) so the process seems to move a bit more than the minimum. This is complicated by the three phase nature of the overall supply process since some turns a given unit or base may not reach its target; however I found that each reached its target at least once every three days (and usually every day if there was ample supply).

There used to be (and I do not think it has changed but it may have with recent patches) a time element, in that if the supply path were of sufficent length supply would only move one day per week to that base. Shorter paths may see supply move daily or every other day or every third day depending on the length of the path...

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: pompack

I have done some extensive testing of supply movement with the latest patch (or at least the beta version so hopefully this part has not changed). As usual it is hard to isolate things, but this is how I THINK it works. I really, really wish that someone who knows how it works will respond and correct me. Please.

First, what changed (at a high level)
Negative: supply in excess of 3x requirement will now flow to the largest port within supply range. This is not a tragedy since you can (and should) manipulate the requirement with the supply buttons. It is a pain since I find it advisable to set a supply boost at virtually every base.
Positive: Supply flows to LCUs in a much, much more efficient manner than it used to. Since the primary purpose of a supply “dump” is to support combat units, this is a very good thing.

EDIT: "requirement" is usually the number shown as supplies required; this number takes into account the number of units in the base and the number of times the boost supply button has been hit. The exception to this is if a Theater HQ is present in which case the "requirement" will be 20k (or maybe 25k?) greater than the number shown.

The Process (this explanation is grossly simplified since it ignores the three phase nature of supply movement; however this simplified explanation is till valid if you consider it is a summary of what actually happens over three successive days. Also it is based upon testing in areas where there was no supply “throttle”, e.g. NOT around Darwin)

Note that every movement of supply is subject to supply wastage as a function of the length of the supply path movement

1. Every LCU is supplied from the nearest (in MP) base as long as that base has positive supply. Note that this may drive the supply at the base to zero; you will not see this happen since later steps may replenish the supply. If the nearest base has no supply, then the next nearest base will provide it supply up to the maximum supply length for that phase.
2. Once every LCU has been supplied, every base with less than 1x requirement will attempt to draw supply (up to that level) from each base that has more than 3x requirement and is within supply range (nearest first)
3. Once each base has had the opportunity to draw supply to the 1x requirement level, each base with less than 3x requirement will attempt to draw supply up to that level using the same procedure of step #2.
4. Once each base has had the opportunity to draw up to the 3x requirement level, every base with more than 3x requirement remaining will move that excess to the largest port within supply range.

EDIT: Per Treespider, if the supply path to the largest port is extremely long, suppiles moved per #4 will only move once per week.

The order in which LCUs are supplied, and (more significantly) the order in which bases are supplied does not seem to relate to geographic location. I suspect that it is based upon the ID codes.

Now I found that there is a bit of randomness in the final supply levels (especially at the LCU level) so the process seems to move a bit more than the minimum. This is complicated by the three phase nature of the overall supply process since some turns a given unit or base may not reach its target; however I found that each reached its target at least once every three days (and usually every day if there was ample supply).

There used to be (and I do not think it has changed but it may have with recent patches) a time element, in that if the supply path were of sufficent length supply would only move one day per week to that base. Shorter paths may see supply move daily or every other day or every third day depending on the length of the path...

Thank you TS

My exception base is a long way from the port where things are accumulating and I only tested the non-movement for four turns. A seven day cycle for extreme length would explain it.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

i think its a brilliantly implemented system - at the start of a game BUT i have paid in blood, ships and time to get supply and fuel to some of these 'lesser' bases only to find 6 months into a PBEM that these bases are now stripped of the very supply i shipped in! Very frustrating

ANYTIME you land supplies at a port, increase the port's supply requirement to just below the max it can hold. This will insure that the landed supplies do not move (as long as you land less than the 3x requirement level). If you want to supply a nearby offensive, leave it at max and the supplies will flow to nearby LCUs in spite of the max requirement. If you want it to flow to an inland base, then increase the requirement for that base and decrease the requirement for the port; I suggest you reduce it gradually

[Grotius]

What do we do about fuel? Port Arthur sucked away fuel from many bases, including two (Peiping and Harbin) that are now short of fuel for heavy industry. If I request more supply at Harbin and Peiping, will they acquire more fuel, too? If not, what do I do?