Grond combat modifiers

[Chris21wen]

A recent ground combat result is shown below. The attack took place in a swamp hex with the chinese units slightly short of supply have reduced theeir AV. The swamp, Japanese full supply (AI very hard) and have bump up the Japanese AV.

First have I got all that correct.
Second, why is there no mention of the Combat modifiers? The Chinese (me) do have a corp, army and command HQ in range and I'm assuming the same for the Japanese which therefore cancel each other out.


Ground combat at 85,51 (near Hankow)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 44491 troops, 284 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1512

Defending force 9785 troops, 195 guns, 5 vehicles, Assault Value = 276

Allied adjusted assault: 984

Japanese adjusted defense: 907

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1358 casualties reported
Squads: 41 destroyed, 58 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 7 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 40 (3 destroyed, 37 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
360 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 36 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled


Assaulting units:
8th Chinese Corps
53rd Chinese Corps
18th Chinese Corps
73rd Chinese Corps
20th Group Army
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment

Defending units:
3rd Division
58th Division
13th Division
12th Ind.Infantry Brigade
6th Division
1st Ind.Mixed Brigade

[wdolson]

The combat modifiers for HQs only show if the HQ passed the their die roll.  If they failed the die roll, they contributed nothing to the combat.

Bill

[LoBaron]

I remember a tread about the leader(+/-) modifier, where Michael responded
to a question that leader(-) means that the dice roll for the commander to affect combat
failed, so that means its equal to no effect.

What I wondered afterwards was:

What does the absence of the leader modifier mean then?

There is a leader(+) modifier, so if leader(-) simply means the absence of the effect,
does no modifier shown mean the absence of the dice roll?

[wdolson]

Just looked at the code to refresh my memory.  There are three leader checks that can add to the combat modifiers, and two fails that can detract. 

If more than 1/2 of the stack fails, on average, both fail rolls, you get Leaders(-).  If more than 1/2, on average, pass, you get Leaders(+).  On top of that, fog of war is thrown into the mix.

I know, it's confusing.

Bill

[LoBaron]

Bill, thank you for the clarification.

Its complicated but not counterintuitive IMO, and this is what counts.

[DuckofTindalos]

Grond don't need no stinking combat modifiers!

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Grond don't need no stinking combat modifiers!

Damnit! You beat me to it! [:@]

[LoBaron]

Ground combat at 85,51 (near Minas Tirith)

Sauron Deliberate attack

Attacking force 44491 troops, 284 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1512

Defending force 9785 troops, 195 guns, 5 vehicles, Assault Value = 276

Sardaukar adjusted assault: 984

Gondor adjusted defense: 907

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender:
Attacker: Grond(+)

Sauron ground losses:
1358 casualties reported
Squads: 41 destroyed, 58 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 7 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 40 (3 destroyed, 37 disabled)


Gondor ground losses:
360 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 36 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled


Assaulting units:
8th Orkish Corps
53rd Orkish Corps
18th Orkish Corps
73rd Orkish Corps
20th Group Army
4th Heavy Grond Regiment

Defending units:
3rd Gondor Guards
58th Gondor Guards
13th Elb. Bowman Brigade
12th Elb. Bowman Brigade
6th Dwarv Division
1st Hobbit Brigade

[USSAmerica]

Well done, LoBaron!  [&o]  [:D]

[beppi]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Ground combat at 85,51 (near Minas Tirith)

Sauron Deliberate attack

Attacking force 44491 troops, 284 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1512

Defending force 9785 troops, 195 guns, 5 vehicles, Assault Value = 276

Sardaukar adjusted assault: 984

Gondor adjusted defense: 907

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender:
Attacker: Grond(+)

Sauron ground losses:
1358 casualties reported
Squads: 41 destroyed, 58 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 7 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 40 (3 destroyed, 37 disabled)


Gondor ground losses:
360 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 36 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled


Assaulting units:
8th Orkish Corps
53rd Orkish Corps
18th Orkish Corps
73rd Orkish Corps
20th Group Army
4th Heavy Grond Regiment

Defending units:
3rd Gondor Guards
58th Gondor Guards
13th Elb. Bowman Brigade
12th Elb. Bowman Brigade
6th Dwarv Division
1st Hobbit Brigade

Clearly a fake. Impossible that the attackers with a Grond(+) take more losses than the defender !!!! [:D]

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: beppi

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Ground combat at 85,51 (near Minas Tirith)

Sauron Deliberate attack

Attacking force 44491 troops, 284 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1512

Defending force 9785 troops, 195 guns, 5 vehicles, Assault Value = 276

Sardaukar adjusted assault: 984

Gondor adjusted defense: 907

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender:
Attacker: Grond(+)

Sauron ground losses:
1358 casualties reported
Squads: 41 destroyed, 58 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 7 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 40 (3 destroyed, 37 disabled)


Gondor ground losses:
360 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 36 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled


Assaulting units:
8th Orkish Corps
53rd Orkish Corps
18th Orkish Corps
73rd Orkish Corps
20th Group Army
4th Heavy Grond Regiment

Defending units:
3rd Gondor Guards
58th Gondor Guards
13th Elb. Bowman Brigade
12th Elb. Bowman Brigade
6th Dwarv Division
1st Hobbit Brigade

Clearly a fake. Impossible that the attackers with a Grond(+) take more losses than the defender !!!! [:D]

this game is borked!!! orcs ALWAYS shock attack!

[Andrew Brown]

Sardaukar adjusted assault: 984

Very funny, but I wonder what the Sardaukar (soldier-fanatics serving the Padishah Emperors of House Corrino in the Dune series by Frank Herbert) are doing on Middle Earth??

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: wdolson
If more than 1/2 of the stack fails, on average, both fail rolls, you get Leaders(-).  If more than 1/2, on average, pass, you get Leaders(+).  On top of that, fog of war is thrown into the mix.

When you say fog of war is thrown into the mix, does that mean that if you're the Allied player, you might see the Japanese get a modifier when they really didn't, or even both sides have unreliable reports?

I only ask because I've seen results where the Japanese Ai gets both a (+) and a (-) modifier at the same time. What do I conclude from that? Only one of them could have been 'true', right?

[LoBaron]

Guys, guys. Please, lets keep this discussion civil will we?

beppi, at first I was quite surprized by this too, but don´t the Hobbit Brigades have fire 2 extinguisher
platoons and a Merlin device after 842? I think this counters the Grond(+)...

Kwik E Mart: I dislike being accused of faking combat reports when you don´t know the whole story.
We both know that the 1st Ghost Army HQ resets enemy shock attack to deliberate, and does only show
up on intel screen and not on combat report.

Andrew...well...hm....damn...
Should I post in the tech forum?

[LoBaron]

Damnit, beppi, you were the one accusing me to fake CRs, not Kwik E Mart.
Apoligies in one direction and shame on you in the other...

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Sardaukar adjusted assault: 984

Very funny, but I wonder what the Sardaukar (soldier-fanatics serving the Padishah Emperors of House Corrino in the Dune series by Frank Herbert) are doing on Middle Earth??

Must been a wormhole effect... [:D]

[beppi]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Damnit, beppi, you were the one accusing me to fake CRs, not Kwik E Mart.
Apoligies in one direction and shame on you in the other...

I have to apologize to accusing you that that CR is faked. From my experience a Grond (+) modifier is overwhelming but i have to admit that i have used the Heavy Grond Regiments only in assaulting heavy fortified bases. It is impressive how fast Grond brings down the forts. Never used them in open combat. But i still see it as a possible bug cause Grond should give its bonuses in open combat too. As far is a know this is how the engine currently is supposed to work. I think we should contact Michaelm to check it.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: beppi

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Damnit, beppi, you were the one accusing me to fake CRs, not Kwik E Mart.
Apoligies in one direction and shame on you in the other...

I have to apologize to accusing you that that CR is faked. From my experience a Grond (+) modifier is overwhelming but i have to admit that i have used the Heavy Grond Regiments only in assaulting heavy fortified bases. It is impressive how fast Grond brings down the forts. Never used them in open combat. But i still see it as a possible bug cause Grond should give its bonuses in open combat too. As far is a know this is how the engine currently is supposed to work. I think we should contact Michaelm to check it.

beppi, as I said alrady first, Grond underperforming surprised me too. I too have to apologize, my response was too harsh.
I simply put it down to the Hobbit treats, that it could increase in proportion to fortification levels never occured to me.
Good observation! [&o]

Michael, apprechiate if you could enlighten us on this topic.

Sardaukar, what is this wormhole effect you are talking about? Is this also related to War in the Dunes?
And if yes, how is it affecting WitME?

And where is my medication?

[Puhis]

Why doesn't Minas Tirith have fortification (+) modifier? [:@]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I only ask because I've seen results where the Japanese Ai gets both a (+) and a (-) modifier at the same time. What do I conclude from that? Only one of them could have been 'true', right?

I think leaders have more than one modifier. For example there can be (+) for leadership, and (-) for something else.

[michaelm75au]

Michael, apprechiate if you could enlighten us on this topic.

Sardaukar, what is this wormhole effect you are talking about? Is this also related to War in the Dunes?

Well the Sardaukar should get an expericence drop as they are out of their element AND as they have crossed worlds, another drop unless 1/3 of the AV in the hex is already Saradaukar, but not if there are any Atreides' units present. This can be counted by the presence of the Emperor in the hex, however. Unless the Duke is within command radius of the battle.

However, all this can be ignored if Darth Vader is present.
Clear ??