Puzzling Result

[Icedawg]

I just ran a test of some first turn air attacks using BigBabes C and got lots of instances of squadrons not flying.

For example, I transferred all of the size 9 Zero detachments from Takao to Hengchun and had some set to sweep Manila and others to sweep Clark. Not a single Zero flew from Hengchun.

Another example, I transferred the single engine LB's in Indochina (24 Anns, 23 Sonias and 12 Marys) to Singora and Patani and set them to airfield attack at Georgetown and Alor Star. I also had a 42 plane Nate squadron in Patani set to sweep Georgetown. None of these flew either.

The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the mod has changed something about offensive missions and aviation support. All three of these bases were short AV - and Singora and Patani had absolutely none. Does AV shortage prevent offensive missions in BigBabes C? Or did I just get some really unlucky rolls?

[Icedawg]

I just noticed that any unit that had been transferred to a new base did not fly offensive missions. All pilots in squadrons that had relocated to a new base had zero missions at the end of the turn. Is this a new feature of BigBabes?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I just noticed that any unit that had been transferred to a new base did not fly offensive missions. All pilots in squadrons that had relocated to a new base had zero missions at the end of the turn. Is this a new feature of BigBabes?

I believe this to be the case in the Vanilla version as well.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I just noticed that any unit that had been transferred to a new base did not fly offensive missions. All pilots in squadrons that had relocated to a new base had zero missions at the end of the turn. Is this a new feature of BigBabes?

I believe this to be the case in the Vanilla version as well.

Wow, I never noticed it! I guess I should change my screen name to Captain Oblivious! [:D]

I had casually noticed units not flying, but I just thought I was getting unlucky leader rolls or something. I just noticed it when I did this formal test of my initial air disposition.

[fodder]

From the sometimes useful manual

7.2 AIR SEQUENCE OF PLAY

A unit may only execute one transfer per Orders Phase, and units that have transferred are free to perform all normal operations from their new base in the immediately succeeding resolution phase.


7.2.3 TRANSFERS
An air unit may only transfer once per turn and it can fly regular air Missions the turn it is transferred (note that only the planes and pilots are transferred; aviation support units must be moved like other ground units).



I have tried very hard to get a aircraft to attack after a transfer. I've tried everthing I could think of, trans differant units to differant bases, changed leaders, used differant HQ. Nothing has worked yet.

Fighters will fly cap and long range cap the turn they transfer.

[KenchiSulla]

Without doing number crunching I would say that the small base size, out of HQ range and overstacked airfields have something to do with it.. See if the airbase you are trying to fly from is able to support the groups you have stationed there..

[geofflambert]

[&:] I've never had problems with xfrd sqs performing missions the same turn except for the same reasons non xfrd sqs sometimes refuse to go (weather for one). I've only played stock though.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: fodder
I have tried very hard to get a aircraft to attack after a transfer. I've tried everthing I could think of, trans differant units to differant bases, changed leaders, used differant HQ. Nothing has worked yet.

Fighters will fly cap and long range cap the turn they transfer.

If I am not comletely wrong I have experienced both situations, but the problem happens most often on attack missions.

This leads me to two explanations:

- the transfer causes fatigue, maybe, in combination with other factors, this is the last drop to fill the barrel and the unit does not fly

- there truly is a game mechanism preventing offense missions after transfer

I believe it is the former but cannot prove it atm. In general I adopted the habit to not rely on units fresh from transfer.
In fact I like to think theres a rule that they don´t fly. This game favors very fast relocation of units too much anyway, or at
least does not simulate the difficulties accompanied with that.

[Barb]

I had the same "issue" on the first turn (so if you want a maximal air strikes, you shouldn't move a thing). On other turns I didn't see such behavior - they act normally.

[HansBolter]

Personally I like this.

In the good ole days of UV transfers used to cause so much fatigue that there was almost no hope of a mission on the same day, sometimes not for several days.

Vanilla WITP made it way, way too easy to have way, way too much flexibility in transferring and immediatley using air squadrons. With a fatigue factor causing almost mandatory stand down, a little more advanced planning is required, which is a good thing in my opinion.

So, yea, while its possible to have squadrons fly a mission on the same day they transfer, it seems the code may have been adjusted to make it less likely.

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: fodder
I have tried very hard to get a aircraft to attack after a transfer. I've tried everthing I could think of, trans differant units to differant bases, changed leaders, used differant HQ. Nothing has worked yet.

Fighters will fly cap and long range cap the turn they transfer.

If I am not comletely wrong I have experienced both situations, but the problem happens most often on attack missions.

This leads me to two explanations:

- the transfer causes fatigue, maybe, in combination with other factors, this is the last drop to fill the barrel and the unit does not fly

- there truly is a game mechanism preventing offense missions after transfer

I believe it is the former but cannot prove it atm. In general I adopted the habit to not rely on units fresh from transfer.
In fact I like to think theres a rule that they don´t fly. This game favors very fast relocation of units too much anyway, or at
least does not simulate the difficulties accompanied with that.

At least it looks like freshly transfered units get a penalty.

[michaelm75au]

Besides all the obvious, it also has to do with the distance the group moves.

As a transfer happens immediately, where in reality, it would have taken place in the am or pm, there are tests in place to hamper the strike operations based on the distance moved.
So a short move, could see the group flying in the pm. But a long move might not see them flying at all.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Besides all the obvious, it also has to do with the distance the group moves.

As a transfer happens immediately, where in reality, it would have taken place in the am or pm, there are tests in place to hamper the strike operations based on the distance moved.
So a short move, could see the group flying in the pm. But a long move might not see them not flying at all.

Outstanding solution! Thanks for the detailed info, Michael! [8D]

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: michaelm75au

Besides all the obvious, it also has to do with the distance the group moves.

As a transfer happens immediately, where in reality, it would have taken place in the am or pm, there are tests in place to hamper the strike operations based on the distance moved.
So a short move, could see the group flying in the pm. But a long move might not see them flying at all.

I think there may be two checks involved - distance moved during air group transfer and distance to mission's target in PM phase.

I redid the first turn several times as the Japs using the non-historical start. My standard opening was to move 14th Sentai (Sally unit) from Takao to Kagi, which is just ONE HEX away from Takao. I do this to ease congestion at Takao's airfield. The group was given an order to bomb Hong Kong port, which is 9 hexes away from Kagi and still within Sally's normal range. NOT ONCE did the Sally unit fly on Dec 7 - EVER. They always fly on Dec 8 though. I guess if Pescadores were an Allied base then maybe they could have flown then, since Pescadores is only one hex away from Kagi.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I just noticed that any unit that had been transferred to a new base did not fly offensive missions. All pilots in squadrons that had relocated to a new base had zero missions at the end of the turn. Is this a new feature of BigBabes?

I believe this to be the case in the Vanilla version as well.

That's not the case with vanilla. I moved some Betties from one base to another to fly a naval attack mission and they flew it that next day. (They missed, but that's another issue. [8|])

Edit: Ok, upon reading the rest of this thread, the move was ~10 hexes. So, based on michaelm's comments, they may have passed the move check. Not may flew, about 25%.

[Uncivil Engineer]

ORIGINAL: michaelm75au

Besides all the obvious, it also has to do with the distance the group moves.

As a transfer happens immediately, where in reality, it would have taken place in the am or pm, there are tests in place to hamper the strike operations based on the distance moved.
So a short move, could see the group flying in the pm. But a long move might not see them flying at all.

In real life wouldn't a unit fly a mission from its original base, but return to a different base? The game does not allow this (or seems to allow something like it under specific circumstances), but maybe it should. Just like a TF can have a destination and a home port, which is different from its current port location.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

ORIGINAL: michaelm75au

Besides all the obvious, it also has to do with the distance the group moves.

As a transfer happens immediately, where in reality, it would have taken place in the am or pm, there are tests in place to hamper the strike operations based on the distance moved.
So a short move, could see the group flying in the pm. But a long move might not see them flying at all.

In real life wouldn't a unit fly a mission from its original base, but return to a different base? The game does not allow this (or seems to allow something like it under specific circumstances), but maybe it should. Just like a TF can have a destination and a home port, which is different from its current port location.

This was discussed a LONG time ago, just too hard to implement. Since both sides are equally impacted, it is not a game balance issue.

I need to add, IIRC, that a few plane models were given a bit more extended range to allow for some of the historical missions.