rebuilding division costs.

[crsutton]

Can anyone offer up a ballpark supply cost to rebuild a typical Japanese infantry division. Or is it more complex that just supply? I don't know Japanese production well enough but want to be able to measure the effect on Japan of eliminating a major unit such as this from the Allied perspective.

Thanks,

[Spidery]

I think, the supply cost is equal to the load cost.

So for a good division it is about 15000 to 17000 and for a poor division about 11000 to 12000.

There are also Armaments, Vehicles and Manpower. Manpower doesn't seem to matter. Vehicle cost is the load cost of vehicles and Armaments cost is the load cost of non-vehicles, non-squad plus 1 per squad. However, I have never been sure what counts as a squad (do support squads?).

[Spidery]

To answer from the Allied perspective.

If the Japanese player has planned ahead the Vehicles/Armaments cost will probably be absorbed, if they haven't then it will cause problems once the Soviets attack.

The supply cost represents about half a days supply production. However, also note that a division consumes about the same supply out of combat as it takes to build it in about 16 months. On the whole, the supply value of eliminating divisions is marginal.

However, there are other benefits: loss of experienced troops; many Japanese divisions start over-strength and will return weaker in consequence; use of fuel shipping Divisions to new location (about 10% or more of the load cost to ship 20 hexes).

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

To answer from the Allied perspective.

If the Japanese player has planned ahead the Vehicles/Armaments cost will probably be absorbed, if they haven't then it will cause problems once the Soviets attack.

The supply cost represents about half a days supply production. However, also note that a division consumes about the same supply out of combat as it takes to build it in about 16 months. On the whole, the supply value of eliminating divisions is marginal.

However, there are other benefits: loss of experienced troops; many Japanese divisions start over-strength and will return weaker in consequence; use of fuel shipping Divisions to new location (about 10% or more of the load cost to ship 20 hexes).

Resetting the unit to 40 Experience is the biggest cost to me.

The cost to rebuild is not actually that high on a per-division basis. It would add up, however.

[obvert]

Having done this extensively and then essentially run out of supply in mid-45, I can say that I believe the costs of rebuilding are high enough to hurt Japan. This would be an additional cost that is added onto the constant high cost of replacing airframes and other combat losses in the later game. None of these things on it's own is difficult to absorb, but added together, it all chips away at the Empire. I'd also agree that the experience loss is a big factor to destroy one if you can! [:)]

[crsutton]

Thanks for putting it in perspective. I now have at least a good idea, and it seems the burden is probably a lot more than it looks on paper and worth the effort to kill units. The loss in experience is a monster. I really think, that the very high experience levels found in some division is the only factor that allows them to stand up to the Average Allied infantry division by late 1943. It is the only defense vs the growing firepower of Allied units. The other factor is that unlike Allied divisions there is little opportunity for Japanese division in mid to late war to grown in experience via combat, so that experience lost will never come back.

Many times trying to rebuild a lost unit is a mistake even for the Allies. My rule of thumb is that virtually every American unit can be rebuilt with little thought but the loss of a Commonwealth division is a serious loss and it is hard to replace them. You need to pick and choose carefully.

[Alfred]

[font=calibri]Yes, it is much more complex than just supply.  I'll give you two infantry divisions as exemplars of rebuilding from scratch and their opportunity cost.  The data comes from their at start TOE in scenario 1.[/font]
[font=calibri]A.  21st Division.[/font]
[font=calibri]324 inf squads.  Aggregate load cost is 5505[/font]
[font=calibri]48 engr squads.  Aggregate load cost is 864[/font]
[font=calibri]54 HMG squads.  Aggregate load cost is 1080[/font]
[font=calibri]18 37mm ATG.  Aggregate load cost is 108[/font]
[font=calibri]18 70mm How.  Aggregate load cost is 108[/font]
[font=calibri]12 Inf guns.  Aggregate load cost is 96[/font]
[font=calibri]36 Mtn guns.  Aggregate load cost is 288[/font]
[font=calibri]17 tankettes.  Aggregate load cost is 170[/font]
[font=calibri]18 7.7mm AAMG.  Aggregate load cost is 54[/font]
 
[font=calibri]To reconstitute this division from scratch will therefore cost 8103 armament points, 170 vehicle points and 8273 manpower points.  Those armament and vehicle points consume 49638 Heavy Industry points.  Those HI points could have been used to assemble 2757 single engine planes.[/font]
 
As resurrected units are placed in the reinforcement schedule, it is possible (never having resurrected one myself) that the 21st Div would be treated as receiving the free 25% of TOE when insufficient armament/vehicle points applies, but even then the final cost would be about a 2100 HI points opportunity cost.
 
[font=calibri]B.  5th Division.[/font]
[font=calibri]324 infantry squads.  Aggregate load cost is 6156[/font]
[font=calibri]48 engr squads.  Aggregate load cost is 864[/font]
[font=calibri]56 HMG squads.  Aggregate load cost is 1120[/font]
[font=calibri]22 37mm ATG.  Aggregate load cost is 132[/font]
[font=calibri]36 70mm Hoiw.  Aggregate load cost is 216[/font]
[font=calibri]12 75 Inf gun.  Aggregate load cost is 96[/font]
[font=calibri]24 75mm Field gun.  Aggregate load cost is 240[/font]
[font=calibri]12 10cm How.  Aggregate load cost is 144[/font]
[font=calibri]12 Mot squads.  Aggregate load cost is 204[/font]
 
[font=calibri]That will require 9172 armament points plus 9172 manpower points.  The HI cost is 55032 or an opportunity cost of 3056 single engine aircraft.[/font]
On average the single engine aircraft opportunity cost would range from 2200 to 2900.
[font=calibri]Also don't forget the fuel which was used in creating the HI points which also counts as an opportunity cost.  Most strong Japanese players only produce sufficient armament and vehicle points to meet scheduled reinforcement needs and regular wear and tear.  Once a small buffer is built up, they cease producing more armament/vehicle points for their pools to conserve their HI points (and inputs) for more "valuable" things.[/font]
There is also the VPs that were gained in originally destroying the unit.
Alfred

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

[font=calibri]Yes, it is much more complex than just supply.  I'll give you two infantry divisions as exemplars of rebuilding from scratch and their opportunity cost.  The data comes from their at start TOE in scenario 1.[/font]
[font=calibri]A.  21st Division.[/font]
[font=calibri]324 inf squads.  Aggregate load cost is 5505[/font]
[font=calibri]48 engr squads.  Aggregate load cost is 864[/font]
[font=calibri]54 HMG squads.  Aggregate load cost is 1080[/font]
[font=calibri]18 37mm ATG.  Aggregate load cost is 108[/font]
[font=calibri]18 70mm How.  Aggregate load cost is 108[/font]
[font=calibri]12 Inf guns.  Aggregate load cost is 96[/font]
[font=calibri]36 Mtn guns.  Aggregate load cost is 288[/font]
[font=calibri]17 tankettes.  Aggregate load cost is 170[/font]
[font=calibri]18 7.7mm AAMG.  Aggregate load cost is 54[/font]

[font=calibri]To reconstitute this division from scratch will therefore cost 8103 armament points, 170 vehicle points and 8273 manpower points.  Those armament and vehicle points consume 49638 Heavy Industry points.  Those HI points could have been used to assemble 2757 single engine planes.[/font]

As resurrected units are placed in the reinforcement schedule, it is possible (never having resurrected one myself) that the 21st Div would be treated as receiving the free 25% of TOE when insufficient armament/vehicle points applies, but even then the final cost would be about a 2100 HI points opportunity cost.

[font=calibri]B.  5th Division.[/font]
[font=calibri]324 infantry squads.  Aggregate load cost is 6156[/font]
[font=calibri]48 engr squads.  Aggregate load cost is 864[/font]
[font=calibri]56 HMG squads.  Aggregate load cost is 1120[/font]
[font=calibri]22 37mm ATG.  Aggregate load cost is 132[/font]
[font=calibri]36 70mm Hoiw.  Aggregate load cost is 216[/font]
[font=calibri]12 75 Inf gun.  Aggregate load cost is 96[/font]
[font=calibri]24 75mm Field gun.  Aggregate load cost is 240[/font]
[font=calibri]12 10cm How.  Aggregate load cost is 144[/font]
[font=calibri]12 Mot squads.  Aggregate load cost is 204[/font]

[font=calibri]That will require 9172 armament points plus 9172 manpower points.  The HI cost is 55032 or an opportunity cost of 3056 single engine aircraft.[/font]
On average the single engine aircraft opportunity cost would range from 2200 to 2900.
[font=calibri]Also don't forget the fuel which was used in creating the HI points which also counts as an opportunity cost.  Most strong Japanese players only produce sufficient armament and vehicle points to meet scheduled reinforcement needs and regular wear and tear.  Once a small buffer is built up, they cease producing more armament/vehicle points for their pools to conserve their HI points (and inputs) for more "valuable" things.[/font]
There is also the VPs that were gained in originally destroying the unit.
Alfred

Thanks Alfred, This puts in a very clear prospective. Point is, it is quite a blow for Japan and costs a heck of a lot to rebuild.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Alfred

[font=calibri]Yes, it is much more complex than just supply.  I'll give you two infantry divisions as exemplars of rebuilding from scratch and their opportunity cost.  The data comes from their at start TOE in scenario 1.[/font]
[font=calibri]A.  21st Division.[/font]
[font=calibri]324 inf squads.  Aggregate load cost is 5505[/font]
[font=calibri]48 engr squads.  Aggregate load cost is 864[/font]
[font=calibri]54 HMG squads.  Aggregate load cost is 1080[/font]
[font=calibri]18 37mm ATG.  Aggregate load cost is 108[/font]
[font=calibri]18 70mm How.  Aggregate load cost is 108[/font]
[font=calibri]12 Inf guns.  Aggregate load cost is 96[/font]
[font=calibri]36 Mtn guns.  Aggregate load cost is 288[/font]
[font=calibri]17 tankettes.  Aggregate load cost is 170[/font]
[font=calibri]18 7.7mm AAMG.  Aggregate load cost is 54[/font]

[font=calibri]To reconstitute this division from scratch will therefore cost 8103 armament points, 170 vehicle points and 8273 manpower points.  Those armament and vehicle points consume 49638 Heavy Industry points.  Those HI points could have been used to assemble 2757 single engine planes.[/font]

As resurrected units are placed in the reinforcement schedule, it is possible (never having resurrected one myself) that the 21st Div would be treated as receiving the free 25% of TOE when insufficient armament/vehicle points applies, but even then the final cost would be about a 2100 HI points opportunity cost.

[font=calibri]B.  5th Division.[/font]
[font=calibri]324 infantry squads.  Aggregate load cost is 6156[/font]
[font=calibri]48 engr squads.  Aggregate load cost is 864[/font]
[font=calibri]56 HMG squads.  Aggregate load cost is 1120[/font]
[font=calibri]22 37mm ATG.  Aggregate load cost is 132[/font]
[font=calibri]36 70mm Hoiw.  Aggregate load cost is 216[/font]
[font=calibri]12 75 Inf gun.  Aggregate load cost is 96[/font]
[font=calibri]24 75mm Field gun.  Aggregate load cost is 240[/font]
[font=calibri]12 10cm How.  Aggregate load cost is 144[/font]
[font=calibri]12 Mot squads.  Aggregate load cost is 204[/font]

[font=calibri]That will require 9172 armament points plus 9172 manpower points.  The HI cost is 55032 or an opportunity cost of 3056 single engine aircraft.[/font]
On average the single engine aircraft opportunity cost would range from 2200 to 2900.
[font=calibri]Also don't forget the fuel which was used in creating the HI points which also counts as an opportunity cost.  Most strong Japanese players only produce sufficient armament and vehicle points to meet scheduled reinforcement needs and regular wear and tear.  Once a small buffer is built up, they cease producing more armament/vehicle points for their pools to conserve their HI points (and inputs) for more "valuable" things.[/font]
There is also the VPs that were gained in originally destroying the unit.
Alfred

Thanks Alfred, This puts in a very clear prospective. Point is, it is quite a blow for Japan and costs a heck of a lot to rebuild.

I....disagree. I think. We looked at this about a year ago. This has come up a couple of times and every time I've looked at the numbers, it hasn't been anywhere near as expensive.

tm.asp?m=3399542&mpage=1&key=cost%2Crebuilding&#3399542

Note the screenshot from Tracker in GreyJoy's post - I've never known Tracker to be incorrect on what a unit is going to cost to build. Even if Tracker isn't counting the devices already in the pool towards the cost, the amount needed for the 44th Division in that screenshot is simply way too large to agree with a cost of ~10,000 ARM/VEH.

The reason why is in my post later in that thread, where I finally tracked down what the manual says:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

It only has 4 vehicles in the TOE, so 48 Veh Pts seems right... For the Arm. Pts, I'm going to have to look in the manual really fast but perhaps the Load Cost part of rebuilding/taking replacements only applies to Manpower? You have 943 other "devices" that are only going to use up 1557 Armaments.


Edit 2:

Page 233-234 says "1 armament point and manpower points equal to the load cost of the squad will be expended from their pools for each squad. For weapons, armament points and manpower points will be expended equal to the load cost of the device."

So because that unit is mostly squads with few devices, it doesn't actually cost that much.

So squad-heavy units cost almost nothing to rebuild. Manpower, sure, but you'll never use all of that. Ever.

In Alfred's example units, the actual cost is:

A. 21st Division.
324 inf squads. Aggregate load cost is 5505 [324 ARM / 5505 MAN]
48 engr squads. Aggregate load cost is 864 [48 ARM / 864 MAN]
54 HMG squads. Aggregate load cost is 1080 [54 ARM / 1080 MAN]
18 37mm ATG. Aggregate load cost is 108 [108 ARM / 108 MAN]
18 70mm How. Aggregate load cost is 108 [108 ARM / 108 MAN]
12 Inf guns. Aggregate load cost is 96 [96 ARM / 96 MAN]
36 Mtn guns. Aggregate load cost is 288 [288 ARM / 288 MAN]
17 tankettes. Aggregate load cost is 170 [170 VEH / 170 MAN]
18 7.7mm AAMG. Aggregate load cost is 54 [54 ARM / 54 MAN]

21st Div total cost to rebuild: 1,080 ARM / 170 VEH / 8,273 MAN. That's equivalent to only 7,500 HI which is "only" 208.33 single-engine planes.

The 66 artillery guns in that division alone costs more ARM points than all of the squads put together.


And rebuilding Naval Guard Units or JNAF Units? Costs next to nothing.