A message to Slitherine from the astute Tim Stone...

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

I can only speak for myself, but Matrix/slitherine have lost more than a few sales with me because they have no demo to try, but they know best.[&:]

warspite1

I bet any money they have also benefited from sales that would not have happened if a demo was available too - so its swings and roundabouts. I certainly have a couple I can name...

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: z1812

Without commenting on how Demos effect the gaming business generally, I can say that for me they make a positive
difference. Matrix has lost potential sales to me because most often they don't offer them.

Matrix (or any publisher) that doesn't create a demo KNOWS some sales are lost as a result. Assuming creating one is
possible a critical (but NOT only) issue comes down to "Is the return on investment (ROI) worth it to create one?".

It is not one size fits all.

Yet, this topic keeps coming up over and over again because some people don't like the facts of this situation.

[Jakse]

To be on the topic of demos and not whining about women and minorities having opinions, I bought Command Ops due to: a sale and a demo. Just saying.

[z1812]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: z1812

Without commenting on how Demos effect the gaming business generally, I can say that for me they make a positive
difference. Matrix has lost potential sales to me because most often they don't offer them.

Matrix (or any publisher) that doesn't create a demo KNOWS some sales are lost as a result. Assuming creating one is
possible a critical (but NOT only) issue comes down to "Is the return on investment (ROI) worth it to create one?".

It is not one size fits all.

Yet, this topic keeps coming up over and over again because some people don't like the facts of this situation.

Yes, and we can all decide how we spend our dollars.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: z1812

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: z1812

Without commenting on how Demos effect the gaming business generally, I can say that for me they make a positive
difference. Matrix has lost potential sales to me because most often they don't offer them.

Matrix (or any publisher) that doesn't create a demo KNOWS some sales are lost as a result. Assuming creating one is
possible a critical (but NOT only) issue comes down to "Is the return on investment (ROI) worth it to create one?".

It is not one size fits all.

Yet, this topic keeps coming up over and over again because some people don't like the facts of this situation.

Yes, and we can all decide how we spend our dollars.

warspite1

And the Queen's GBP Sterling [;)]

[DSWargamer]

It's interesting, considering all the talk of how there are no demos, just how many demos I can find.

Battle Academy, has a demo.
Panzer Corps has a demo.
Conflict of Heroes has a demo.
Unity of Command has a demo.

These are all very definitely wargames, and each one was substantially different from the other in design too.

I gave up after briefly confirming I wasn't imagining it. Yep, they are all demos.

Why is it, people persist in claiming Slitherine Group has no does no demos?

Some games might not have a demo. But to just state matter of factly that there are none, is factually wrong.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: z1812

Without commenting on how Demos effect the gaming business generally, I can say that for me they make a positive difference. Matrix has lost potential sales to me because most often they don't offer them.

Same here. And I started wargaming with demo disks. Ok. Not really, I started wargaming with cassette rips on C64. But taking in account that they were poor rips with one mission only, there wasn't much difference.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

I can only speak for myself, but Matrix/slitherine have lost more than a few sales with me because they have no demo to try, but they know best.[&:]

warspite1

I bet any money they have also benefited from sales that would not have happened if a demo was available too - so its swings and roundabouts. I certainly have a couple I can name...

Wouldn't bad purchases resulting from lack of demos result in lower trust towards the publisher and thus later decreased sales? Or maybe man isn't a learning animal?

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Lol. Look at the comments. All the fellow travelers are all falling over themselves to be the most tolerant of the ever moving target. The only thing they are intolerant of is anybody that doesn't completely agree with them.

The comments barely get to the third post before Joan er John Funk starts on the oh so trendy 'straight white male' bit. Poor Joan. She's so upset because dad got him a football instead of the bedazzled encrusted purse he wanted.

The perpetually offended. lol.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11 ... interview/

Disdain for ridiculous armour comes from fellow realismfags. Though I have no idea why they gang up on these grotesque low-brow MMO games instead of buying and playing noble and monocled wargames.

One thing that I find interesting that they are meaning the really sinister and manipulative stuff that goes on with these games. All sexual teasing and fetishism isn't to keep women down but to make gamers addicted to these game. I knew one guy that was working on a MMO game and quit when they told him to browse psychological textbooks for fetishes so that the game would be more addictive.

Judging by what he wrote later, John Funk is a straight white male himself. Just because he is one, it doesn't mean that he can't be upset when other people are treated as worse than him.

By the way, butch soldiers are something rather new that came with hormone-filled chickens and steroids. When I look at WWI/WWII photos, most of soldiers seem to be skinny metro-sexual guys. And most of them came from farmer/physical worker background. Real females in military/police also aren't clothed like strippers when on duty. Again, it's a question of realism versus unrealism.
On the other hand, it annoys me when they insist that female characters shouldn't have lower physical stats than male ones. Though taking in account what kind of games they play, the inaccurate gender equality is the smallest problem or taking in account the premise of these games not a problem at all - just as the sexually aggressive female characters.

Another thing that I find problematic about RPS is stuff like this:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09 ... ult-scene/
It's a fascinating example of a complete lack of self awareness from a fan of extremely violent games. Because there's nothing disturbing about going around and killing people, right? Personally, I find Hotline Miami sickening and disturbing. I don't write articles about how the developers should be more sensitive about violence. Instead of it, I play it every day.
By the way, I checked out what do they mean by "triggering". It turned out that I get something like this by playing normal violent video games. Unlike what rape victim lobby claims, getting murdered certainly isn't a pre-requisite for suffering lasting trauma from real life non-sexual violence.

Additionally, what creeps me out about this people how obsessed they are with manipulating the masses through culture to fit their specific agenda. To most of normal people "rape jokes" are a part of black humour - that is humour base on stuff that is usually horrible and disgusting. To the rape victim lobby, they are designed to make rape socially acceptable.
Then they can watch a sketch about a bunch of guys bullying, beating up and murdering people in the name of ecology as a humour but when rape is added, it suddenly becomes unacceptable and suddenly becomes a promotion of rape as a male bonding ritual. What the hell is wrong with these people?

[upen]

ORIGINAL: Boomer78

I agree with some of the sentiment about demos, but I wonder why RPS decided to make a case against Matrix/Slitherine. It's not like any major distributor does demos any more. The last demo from a major dist. I remember playing was for the first Crysis, way back in like '08 or something.

Major distributors aren't selling games for $80 4+ years after release.

Also many games that are outside the mainstream do demos so people can try them out first. Nearly everything Paradox puts out has a demo and other strategy games from major studios (XCOM comes to mind) also have demos. There are several games Matrix sells that I would probably buy if I could just try playing them first but since that's not an option I'll take my money elsewhere. I sank $150+ into the Combat Mission games from Battlefront based solely on their demos.

[Toby42]

YAWN!! [8|]

[Missouri_Rebel]

I could care less of what Joan Funk is. Her opinion is no better than anyone else.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

I could care less of what Joan Funk is. Her opinion is no better than anyone else.

warspite1

IS she related to Slamdunkda? Just curious...

[Missouri_Rebel]

ORIGINAL: Jakse

To be on the topic of demos and not whining about women and minorities having opinions, I bought Command Ops due to: a sale and a demo. Just saying.

Well fellow traveler, my wife doesn't share the websites opinions. Are her views about the artistic rendition of some female characters whining about the opinion of women and minorities and somehow irrelevant? Why do you hate women? [/leftist hyperbole]

[Alchenar]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

ORIGINAL: Jakse

To be on the topic of demos and not whining about women and minorities having opinions, I bought Command Ops due to: a sale and a demo. Just saying.

Well fellow traveler, my wife doesn't share the websites opinions. Are her views about the artistic rendition of some female characters whining about the opinion of women and minorities and somehow irrelevant? Why do you hate women? [/leftist hyperbole]

I have to admit that this self-sacrificial attempt to distract from Tim's article by drawing attention to your own horrible opinions has a hint of nobility to it.

[Missouri_Rebel]

I have to admit that this self-sacrificial attempt to distract from Tim's article by drawing attention to your own horrible opinions has a hint of nobility to it.

And what horrible opinion is that? You can't say can you? lol

Boomers post is relevant, whether you agree with it or not. RPS has lost credibility with their self righteous crusade.

[Missouri_Rebel]

As far as the op topic is concerned, Matrix will follow whatever business path suites them best. I'd personally like demos. Would have saved me a few bucks buying things here I did not care for. But that's just my opinion and since I don't run Matrix, I am powerless to change it. Who else is making these types of games? Not Paradox, nor Battlefront.

[Boomer78]

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

ORIGINAL: Jakse

To be on the topic of demos and not whining about women and minorities having opinions, I bought Command Ops due to: a sale and a demo. Just saying.

Well fellow traveler, my wife doesn't share the websites opinions. Are her views about the artistic rendition of some female characters whining about the opinion of women and minorities and somehow irrelevant? Why do you hate women? [/leftist hyperbole]

I have to admit that this self-sacrificial attempt to distract from Tim's article by drawing attention to your own horrible opinions has a hint of nobility to it.

My response wasn't intended to derail the topic, only to highlight how often RPS now resorts to rhetorical grandstanding and esoteric distractions... case in point, rather than review games or even demos as a whole, they chose to zero in on Matrix/Slitherine for lack of demo releases. And in an industry where demos have become an obsolete platform, I find it yet another example of RPS' partisan take on just about every single issue they cover outside of their review section... even those sometimes lead the writers to wander down paths of taking parting shots at just about anything and everything that bothers them.

[samspackman]

If there was ever a game that needed a demo it's Distant Worlds. It's a great game, but the number 1 recurrent conversation about it is 'I have to pay $100 dollars for a 2D topdown space game?' The best advice you can give is to try the base game for 'only' $30 and see if they like it. If they do, then the expansions add a lot of improvements. This is the sort of game where videos of the game aren't that great a selling point because if you put it up against recent releases like Stardrive or Endless Space, it does look worse. On the other hand, it beats those games into the dust with its gameplay and the mood the game creates. That's not really something you can pick up from an AAR.

A demo wouldn't even need to be that complicated. Just lock the player to a small galaxy with the minimum no. of stars and 2 races and let them go wild. The game will sell itself.

[Alchenar]

ORIGINAL: Boomer78

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel




Well fellow traveler, my wife doesn't share the websites opinions. Are her views about the artistic rendition of some female characters whining about the opinion of women and minorities and somehow irrelevant? Why do you hate women? [/leftist hyperbole]

I have to admit that this self-sacrificial attempt to distract from Tim's article by drawing attention to your own horrible opinions has a hint of nobility to it.

My response wasn't intended to derail the topic, only to highlight how often RPS now resorts to rhetorical grandstanding and esoteric distractions... case in point, rather than review games or even demos as a whole, they chose to zero in on Matrix/Slitherine for lack of demo releases. And in an industry where demos have become an obsolete platform, I find it yet another example of RPS' partisan take on just about every single issue they cover outside of their review section... even those sometimes lead the writers to wander down paths of taking parting shots at just about anything and everything that bothers them.

I think you are right about the inconsistency between RPS's views on violence and sexism, though I think that makes them just inconsistent rather than being wrong on the sexism point. I also think it's best to view RPS as more a shared blog - which actually puts them a step above the rest in terms of games journalism as you get the professional writing standard of guys with years of writing experience without the burdens of being beholden to corporate interests. I like that RPS is opinionated - even if you disagree with the opinion stated it's usually well researched and argued.

In any case, I don't think it's fair to characterise this article as grandstanding. Tim writes about Slitherine/Matrix lots because his column is about wargames (hell, he's basically the last professional wargaming journalist left standing) but he doesn't write about them out of proportion to the other wargames on the market.

Tim goes out of his way to research and get quotes from multiple parties in order to construct an article around 2 main points:

1. The argument that demos turn off customers so you shouldn't make them only makes sense if you a) think that being a 'frustrating experience' is necessary for a wargame and b) have a sales strategy based around selling to people whom you know will suffer instant regret (with obvious consequences for customer loyalty).

2. The argument that demos are a substantial investment in resources and development time is only true if you've somehow managed to really mess up your development. If you plan for it properly then it's as simple as compiling a new version of the game with just the assets for one short scenario, which takes a matter of hours.

I'm not sure either of those points are really answerable.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1

I bet any money they have also benefited from sales that would not have happened if a demo was available too - so its swings and roundabouts. I certainly have a couple I can name...

I hope you realize that what you're suggesting is that a lack of demos is okay as far as suckering people into buying games that they would not have otherwise bought if they had any idea what they were getting.

I mean, yeah, I might try harder to like what would normally be an unappealing game if I had already sunk 40+ dollars into it, but the economic equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome does not strike me as a particularly conscientious method of marketing (although the Phillip Veale from the article does suggest that that's exactly what Matrix is aiming to do, to a point).

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
It's interesting, considering all the talk of how there are no demos, just how many demos I can find.

Battle Academy, has a demo.
Panzer Corps has a demo.
Conflict of Heroes has a demo.
Unity of Command has a demo.

These are all very definitely wargames, and each one was substantially different from the other in design too.

I gave up after briefly confirming I wasn't imagining it. Yep, they are all demos.

Why is it, people persist in claiming Slitherine Group has no does no demos?

Some games might not have a demo. But to just state matter of factly that there are none, is factually wrong.

Did you read the article? The authors states a number of specific games that do have demos, such as Unity of Command, Achtung Panzer Operating Star, and Command Ops, and calls out specific games that do NOT have demos, such as Command: Modern Air Naval Operations, Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm, Civil War 2, España 1936, Commander: The Great War.

You also have to take into consideration that your list is only 4 games long, compared to the 6 that Tim Stone called out specifically, and that even if we took all the Matrix games that do have demos compared to those that don't, the latter is still a much longer list and tends to include most of the games that do have hefty price tags that people might balk at patronizing.

If Unity of Command were to lack a demo, that doesn't hurt as much when it routinely goes on big sales (thanks to its other publishers). Achtung Panzer has even been included in a few indie bundles, which makes it a very easy purchase even for someone with only a passing interest in the game or someone with very little idea of what the game is like apart from some very broad strokes.

It's when the asking price for something exceeds some AAA titles that the proposition becomes problematic.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1

I bet any money they have also benefited from sales that would not have happened if a demo was available too - so its swings and roundabouts. I certainly have a couple I can name...

I hope you realize that what you're suggesting is that a lack of demos is okay as far as suckering people into buying games that they would not have otherwise bought if they had any idea what they were getting.

I mean, yeah, I might try harder to like what would normally be an unappealing game if I had already sunk 40+ dollars into it, but the economic equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome does not strike me as a particularly conscientious method of marketing (although the Phillip Veale from the article does suggest that that's exactly what Matrix is aiming to do, to a point).

warspite1

What?? What are you talking about?? No, OF COURSE I am not suggesting that Matrix don't offer demo's for that reason, much less am I suggesting (if they were) that it would be a reasonable business practice... WTF??

Get off your high horse. I simply pointed out, in a throw away line, that no doubt this does happen - its happened to me. But its not some dastardly plot by Matrix...

There are many things in life where we the consumer don't get a demo, a preview or whatever. Most Matrix games fall into that category apparently - big deal [>:][>:][>:]

Some people just want an argument......