Suggestion - Battle of Jutland

[Titanwarrior89]

Same here. I down loaded the demo but after reading this thread I uninstalled the demo. I didn't buy it I am not paying that kind of money for a renter.[:o]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

I'm not 'bashing' anybody but, just in case anyone from Storm Eagle should pass by, it is because of the DRM that I will not be purchasing this title that I otherwise would have done. For all I know I, and the previous posters, are the only people to whom that applies. But somehow I doubt it.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel

pirates that 'just happen' to live in a turd world country that cannot develop into a civilization where workers are paid decent wages to survive

Or were sold to Stalin by their Western "allies" and need time to develop to economic level of the West.

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel

are usually the byproduct of corrupt government officials

Or rather are the byproduct of lack of interest of western publishers in a local market.

Personally, I will continue to work hard and purchase Manga, books and comics for my hard earned money because their price is at least justified by cost of printing. On the other hand, I'm limiting my new game purchases to games that cost less than 7 local minimal hourly wages, my new CD purchases to those that cost less than 3 local minimal hourly wages, etc.

[Missouri Rebel]

Either scenario, whether it be a college student or a guy from an underdeveloped country, it is stealing and honest folks get the shaft.

Just to clarify; the minimum wage here is around $7 dollars an hour. 3 minimum wage hours equate to $21 dollars therefore it would take roughly 7 wage hours to purchase most downloaded games nowadays. Some states are lower and some I would guess higher.

Take care perturabo and keep striving for your goals.

mo reb

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel

Either scenario, whether it be a college student or a guy from an underdeveloped country, it is stealing and honest folks get the shaft.

Using library is stealing too, but somehow no one installs retina scanners on books.

Anyway - IMO the worst impact of piracy is on players and other customers of digital industries - it distorts the view of situation on market - existence of piracy gives publishers a convenient scapegoat that allows them to not admit that their products aren't competitive.
A lot of publishers behave like monopolies, not like companies that operate on free market and compete with other branches of the entertainment industry.
I remember that music cassettes used to be very expensive in my country. They got pirated a lot, so the publishers lowered prices so that they would be affordable to common folk, which was a normal reaction of a company competing on free market. Then CDs came and again were prohibitively expensive, because it was a "new technology". Now, the cassettes are gone and CDs are very cheap to make, but music CDs are still very expensive. Now, the reaction to piracy isn't making the product more competitive, but introducing DRM or simply whining about MP3s.
So, even if people would stop buying music CDs, piracy would be blamed, not high prices.

Anyway, honest folks will get the shaft anyway, whenever there's piracy or not. Most of current gaming "ethics" is directed at protecting interests of producers, not interests of gamers - which is as bad as if people would download pirates instead of buying games.
Generally, honest folks try to be nice and good to developers, but they aren't paid with the same coin. "Ambitious" buying overpriced digital copies causes publishers to not adjust to a local market, so the whole weight of economic differences is on the shoulders of the buyer.
Tolerance towards bugs, crashes, etc. encourages publishers to release unfinished games - which is completely unfair, because the player can't buy the game for less than a price tag, so the player has to full sum of money, but the publisher doesn't have to provide a finished game.
Understanding of "the developers right to protect his games from being "stolen"" leads to more restrictive DRMs and taking away the gamers right to return a faulty product.
Etc., etc., etc.

IMO gamers need to redefine their goals - not one sided "honesty" towards developers/publishers, but creating a more ethical and more gamer-friendly gaming world as a whole.

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel

Just to clarify; the minimum wage here is around $7 dollars an hour. 3 minimum wage hours equate to $21 dollars therefore it would take roughly 7 wage hours to purchase most downloaded games nowadays. Some states are lower and some I would guess higher.

Oh. I forgot that a lot of games is made in the second world. Hmm... 7 wage hours. It's still much less than 30. In my case game prices approach such point where amount of work needed is much higher than perceived value of the product. When I was a teen and got high pocket money from parents that had their own business, I didn't have anything against such prices, because I didn't understand the value of money. Now, that I'm after two jobs, I can't accept such prices.
So, I'm stuck with sales boxes, freeware and games that I bought long time ago.

[Terminus]

Using a library is not "stealing"...[8|]

[Perturabo]

It is. People who could buy a book, borrow it from a library instead and spend their money on something else. I bought a some books only because they weren't available in library, so the library prevented the authors of the other books that I've read for free from getting paid for their hard work.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

It is. People who could buy a book, borrow it from a library instead and spend their money on something else. I bought a some books only because they weren't available in library, so the library prevented the authors of the other books that I've read for free from getting paid for their hard work.

The logic you try to use here is faulty.

A library exists for many reasons. Governments (that pay for them), attempt to encouage/assist people to read, they do so for the betterment of all. Increased knowledge in a population is a positive in most countries and pays dividends in the long term. And yes, there is room for pure entertainment in a lot reading.

Trying to compare books to software games is not close to a fair comparison. One is an apple and the other is an orange.

In my opinion everybody should have access to books. If your library does not have the book you want try asking them to get it. If that doesn't work see if they need help. Helping just a few hours a week maybe would increase your influence with those who decide what books to get. This worked for me over thirty years ago at our library.

A software game is something each person has to decide if they can afford every time they buy one. Life is unfair, so in one country a person may have to work longer (at the same job) to purchase a game than somebody in some other country. This is true for most products. I don't see this ever changing in my lifetime.

[Terminus]

And, Perturabo, how do you think the books get into the library in the first place? You think they're stolen and deposited there, so others can re-steal them?

[8|][8|][8|]

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

The logic you try to use here is faulty.

A library exists for many reasons. Governments (that pay for them), attempt to encouage/assist people to read, they do so for the betterment of all. Increased knowledge in a population is a positive in most countries and pays dividends in the long term. And yes, there is room for pure entertainment in a lot reading.

Trying to compare books to software games is not close to a fair comparison. One is an apple and the other is an orange.

I would argue that games have positive influence on society - they allow people who would cause trouble to get high on adrenaline, to get their fix in safety of their own houses, they can have educational value, improve problem-solving abilities, etc.

Also, the same thing as about books, can be said about good movies and good music.

Also, one can argue, that since books have such a good influence on readers then their value is higher and their authors deserve the same protection as game/movie developers.

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

In my opinion everybody should have access to books. If your library does not have the book you want try asking them to get it. If that doesn't work see if they need help. Helping just a few hours a week maybe would increase your influence with those who decide what books to get. This worked for me over thirty years ago at our library.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of people believes that everybody should have access to various goods of culture.
Whenever the idea is good or bad, now writers are at disadvantaged position on the market - their products are available for free, while other goods of culture need to be paid for, so one can for example read a book for free and then buy a shooter game. The book may be more valuable, but its writer will loose to a shooter game because the reader didn't have to choice between the two.

Also, accessible doesn't have to mean free - since the thing that makes the books expensive is its printing cost, libraries could work like movie rentals. They just don't do it.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And, Perturabo, how do you think the books get into the library in the first place? You think they're stolen and deposited there, so others can re-steal them?

[8|][8|][8|]

They get donated/bought and deposited here so that other people can steal them, just like books, music, movies and other stuff in 2p2 networks.

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

A software game is something each person has to decide if they can afford every time they buy one. Life is unfair, so in one country a person may have to work longer (at the same job) to purchase a game than somebody in some other country. This is true for most products. I don't see this ever changing in my lifetime.

Well, in case of other products its usually justified by reproductions costs. On the other hand digital media are very cheap to reproduce. So, they should belong to the same market category as services (i.e. what most of people are getting paid for in work) rather than to the categories that require expensive raw materials, etc. If local workers have to adjust the prices of their services to a local market, I don't see any reason why publishers of cheaply reproducible digital goods shouldn't.
It's possible to do as I was able to buy some Matrix games distributed by a local publisher.
Also, there was a company called Topware which specialised in selling new games with local prices.

The problem is that there's no strong movement for lower prices among gamers in countries like Poland - generally, there are people who don't accept prices and pirate games and those who don't understand the nature of the goods that they buy.
It's a big problem, because most of gaming magazines are very pro-industry, not pro-player.
They give very high notes to unfinished, buggy games and lead a constant crusade against piracy, while completely ignoring the problem of fair treatment of customers.
They often, compare games to expensive cars, both when they talk about "stealing" and when they talk about pricing, which is completely untrue, because games are copied, not taken away from the owner and unlike expensive cars are mass produced at low costs for working masses. Basically, they are a propaganda machine that serves the industry.
So, the thing is that the problems of prices/quality appears in public discussions mainly when talking about piracy, not when talking about relations between a developer/publisher and a customer, which almost never happens. IMO decreasing prices would be possible if the amount of people who aren't willing to buy overpriced games, not in context of piracy, but in context of respect for ones own/parents work would increase.

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok folks, please don't cross the line from constructive criticism into bashing. If you want to give feedback to SES, please post it in their official forums where they can respond.

As I understand it they have no official forums. They only have something they call a "Customer Service Server" through which only people who own the game can supplicate.

[sabre100]

They use gamesquad forums they dont have an official forum.  I did purchase their first game and I would not buy the new game because of their DRM system treating the paying customer to jump through hoops to play a game they don't even own because of their DRM and then to make matters worse did you see some of their replies to customers it is plain offensive and just down right wrong for any company to bash their customers the way they do.    I guess the "greatest naval game ever made" can sit on their servers as far as I am concerend talk about being humbled like they should be and letting the end user determine if it is the greatest game ever made [8|] what a joke that is.  Sorry but it is just plain bad the way they treat their customers.

[bradfordkay]

The difference is that you are borrowing a book from a library; you are not keeping it in your possession once you've finished reading it.

You may be depriving an author of the sale of his book, but he and his publisher are gambling that you might like the book enough to either buy your own copy or maybe a copy of another book by that author. In this case, the library "loaning" you the book is more akin to a game publisher releasing a full demo of a game (but a demo that is only usable for two or three weeks).

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

The difference is that you are borrowing a book from a library; you are not keeping it in your possession once you've finished reading it.

You may be depriving an author of the sale of his book, but he and his publisher are gambling that you might like the book enough to either buy your own copy or maybe a copy of another book by that author. In this case, the library "loaning" you the book is more akin to a game publisher releasing a full demo of a game (but a demo that is only usable for two or three weeks).

No, It's more akin to a game publisher releasing you a full copy(not demo) of the game letting you test drive it for a week before returning it.After all, you dont get only part of the book do you?

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Using library is stealing too, but somehow no one installs retina scanners on books.

Really ?

So utilizing the Library that is run by tax dollars is stealing , why not include theft of services in public schools along with you philosophy …………[:D]

[mllange]

Exactly what I was thinking, Sarge.  Anyone who obtained their high school diploma from a public school or anyone who went to college at an in-state university should be locked up for grand theft; just think of all the money they have stolen over the years!  And what about all the people driving on public highways?  Thieves - every one of them!  Lock up the long-haul freight truckers!!!  [8|]

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: nim8or

Exactly what I was thinking, Sarge.  Anyone who obtained their high school diploma from a public school or anyone who went to college at an in-state university should be locked up for grand theft; just think of all the money they have stolen over the years!  And what about all the people driving on public highways?  Thieves - every one of them!  Lock up the long-haul freight truckers!!!  [8|]

If you actually see how some of them drive, then yes, lock up some.Safer for the rest of us...hehehe

[Grell]

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Well, the game(demo) works on my crappy system..Others have said that they have problems.. Thankfully so far I havent.. It does look stupendous.I would buy it BUT.......yup a big but..The licensing thing gets on my nerves. Right now I stay home so it would not effect me too much but once I head back to work I would have serious issues with the 7 day call in. I work from 6 am to 6 pm..with a 4 hr break in the middle. Some days I head home, most days I stay  out with my laptop. If the 7 day call-in occurs when i'm out at work and it refuses to run because it cant find a internet connection I would be sorely pissed. I pay for it I should be able to play it whenever without worrying about a working internet connection!

I also dont really like them selling a barebones model(i think its only 19 scenarios) for roughly full price and overcharging for a full featured version with a campaign but that is thier perogative.They do have a niche product and they do have bills to pay  so this does not annoy me too much.

I really do think they are losing some customers due to thier licensing system but it seems they do not care.. Well, thats about 120 bucks that another wargame company got that would have gone to them for thier 2 games..Oh well....

As long as these guy's keep making games with this type of copy protection I will not buy it.

Regards,

Grell

[Zap]

ORIGINAL: nim8or

Exactly what I was thinking, Sarge.  Anyone who obtained their high school diploma from a public school or anyone who went to college at an in-state university should be locked up for grand theft; just think of all the money they have stolen over the years!  And what about all the people driving on public highways?  Thieves - every one of them!  Lock up the long-haul freight truckers!!!  [8|]

Being a long hual trucker I would say that were the only ones who really should be on the roads. We actually serve a purpose for the good of society.[:D] Everyone who has a computer has it because a trucker delivered it.

[mllange]

Please accept my most humble apologies, Zap; I hope everyone realizes that I was being facetious and simply making a point.

[Zap]

nim8or
I caught your succesful point. I liked it. I was responding with just some humor. I don't really think we're that important. Your apology was very kind but unecessary. No offense was taken at all.