Should you keep 300l drop tanks on your FTRs after T1?

[SchDerGrosse]

I do apologize if this has already been asked and answered before (i did a quick search but it yielded no tangible result).

So my question reads as described in the title. Drop tanks are (allegedly) very useful during the T1 airfield bombing for the axis.

But whats the situation after that? Should I remove them?

Also is there a (semi up to date) guide/discussion on whats the current "meta" with regards to using the Luftwaffe? I was watching strategy gaming dojo's videos on the subject but I would assume a lot was changed since then.

Thanks,

[Jango32]

They are automatically removed after turn 2. So just keep them on for the first two turns and say goodbye at the end of turn 2.

[SchDerGrosse]

They are automatically removed after turn 2. So just keep them on for the first two turns and say goodbye at the end of turn 2.

Thanks.

Btw is this a new thing? I am a returning player, and in earlier builds they tended to remain on the aircraft if I put them on T1.

[Jango32]

It's been a change made for at least a year and a half.

[Teo41_ITA]

They officially become disabled after June 1941. So yes, you can only enjoy them on the first 2 turns, then they're gone.

[Denniss]

I believe there was a somewhat recent change to force-remove disabled weapon sets. Previously you could continue to use them if you did not change to another weapon set.

[Gray Lensman_MatrixForum]

The Luftwaffe began using external fuel tanks with the introduction of a 300 L (66 imp gal; 79 US gal) light alloy model for the Ju 87R, a long-range version of the Stuka dive bomber, in early 1940. The Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighter also used this type of drop tank, starting with the Bf 109E-7 variant introduced in August 1940. Fitted also to the Focke-Wulf Fw 190, the 300 L (66 imp gal; 79 US gal) tank, available in at least four construction formats — including at least one impregnated paper material, single-use version — and varying only slightly in appearance, became the standard volume for most drop tanks in Luftwaffe service, with a rarely used 900 L (200 imp gal; 240 US gal), fin-stabilized large capacity drop tank used with some marks of the Messerschmitt Bf 110 heavy fighter and other twin-engined Luftwaffe combat aircraft.

Wondering where they got their data to justify removing drop tanks after Turn2 ?

[Joch1955]

Wondering where they got their data to justify removing drop tanks after Turn2 ?

There were several threads about this last year. Drop tanks were available, but were not generally used by German fighters on the Eastern Front for a variety of reasons. As I recall, they were removed by the Devs so their use would not be abused by players.

[Joel Billings]

IIRC, Dennis said they were theoretically available, but they just weren't used regularly or in any quantity on the Eastern Front after the opening attack.

[Wiedrock]

they have been disabled as they were used on the west front only, same for drop tanks.
WGr 21: anti-bomber weapon designed to kill 4-mot
Drop tank: required on west front to reach high alt and have some fuel left for formation and combat action

[DarkHorse2]

They are automatically removed after turn 2. So just keep them on for the first two turns and say goodbye at the end of turn 2.

Thanks.

Btw is this a new thing? I am a returning player, and in earlier builds they tended to remain on the aircraft if I put them on T1.

Somebody got the wild idea that drop tanks were not used by the German Fighters after July 1941 on the Eastern front (despite historical evidence to the contrary), and had their availability dates changed in the game data files.

But, bizarrely, drop tank usage persists for the German Level Bombers (which probably do not really need nearly as much as the Bf-109s do....), the Ju-87s, the Ju-52s, the Bf110s (but only when flying bomber missions).

They were only removed from the Luftwaffe Fighter Bombers, which arguably need them more than any other of the Luftwaffe AC.

I can understand your confusion, as the drop-tanks abrupt removal on Jul 1941is completely goofy.

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To be fair, some of the level bomber loadouts used additional internal tanks, which were not truly drop-tanks. Same for the Ju-52s.

[Denniss]

then provide evidence they were in general use on the eastern front.
DTs were typically only assigned for special missions like long range precision bombing missions with ju 87 or for Bf 109/110 deep penetration recons.
Ju 52 and several bomber types have auxiliary tanks which is either full fuel load (Ju 52) or bomb bay extra fuel tanks (medium/heavy bombers).

[DarkHorse2]

I can provide evidence they were used at Stalingrad in '42.

Can also provide evidence that subsequent models of Luftwaffe fighter/fighter-bombers continued to have mounts for drop-tanks.

If drop-tanks were universally discontinued on the Eastern front, then why were the fighter aircraft continued to be produced & delivered that supported drop-tank usage? Why waste resources on unneeded mounts & kits?

Wasn't done for the Western Front, was not needed in a defensive setting.
Wasn't done for the Med Front, was not really ever a primary theatre of operations.

Very ironic I have asked for a good year for you guys to provide evidence they were not used, which has gone ignored.

[Zovs]

I can provide evidence they were used at Stalingrad in '42.

Can also provide evidence that subsequent models of Luftwaffe fighter/fighter-bombers continued to have mounts for drop-tanks.

If drop-tanks were universally discontinued on the Eastern front, then why were the fighter aircraft continued to be produced & delivered that supported drop-tank usage? Why waste resources on unneeded mounts & kits?

Wasn't done for the Western Front, was not needed in a defensive setting.
Wasn't done for the Med Front, was not really ever a primary theatre of operations.

Very ironic I have asked for a good year for you guys to provide evidence they were not used, which has gone ignored.

Do you have links or some other source?

I search the web and the best that I could find is that the Germans did use ETC 250 for their drop tanks. Originally they invented these for the Battle of Britain and they were made out of wood and prone to leakage. They used them in North Africa, but I could not find any thing that mentioned they used them on the Eastern Front. The Germans were more concerned (from what I read) with mounting bombs and ordnance on the Me 109's and Me 110 in 1941.

So please share you research.

[Joch1955]

Based on sources I have seen (Bergstrom, Black Cross Red Star,vol.4) drop tanks for fighters only showed up in Stalingrad in February 1943 and that was as part of the airlift. That is the kind of specialized use that Denniss was referring to.

The Stalingrad airlift was the number one priority of the LW in dec. 42-jan. 43 and yet drop tanks for fighters were only available in feb. 43 after Stalingrad had fallen which should give you a good idea of how "readily available" DTs were on the Eastern Front.

Drop tanks were not in general use for ME109s on the Eastern Front in 41-42. Based on various sources I have seen, there were many reasons for this: 1) DTs were in short supply since production was low; 2) DTs were not really required since fighters were usually based close to the front lines; and 3) general logistic distribution issues inherent to the Eastern Front.

[Jango32]

The reason why drop tanks weren't used a lot IRL is because there was no need to most of the time, the planes were in range to support the units on the ground. Not so much in WitE 2.

[DarkHorse2]

Denniss,

I don't see you correcting anything, but as I said, I had supporting information.

Let me preface by asserting that a lot of the historical record has been lost or destroyed. As such, the explicit usage of drop tanks is scarce on any theatre of operation. Given enough time, I am confident I could find other examples.

1. The following comes from Luftwaffe Tactical Operations at Stalingrad, Air Command and Staff College, Maxwell AFB, April 1987

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GermanLuftwaffe_AuxTanks_1942.JPG (102.84 KiB) Viewed 993 times

CoverPage.JPG (173.37 KiB) Viewed 993 times

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2. This is the documented downing of a Bf 109G-2/R1 in Soviet Union in 1942. This is relevant because this model of AC was considered a Long-range Fighter-bomber and explicitly equipped with drop tanks.

Several Rüstsätze could be fitted, although installing these did not change the designation of the aircraft. Instead the "/R" suffix referred to the G-2's Rüstzustand or equipment condition of the airframe, which was assigned at the factory rather than in the field. There were two Rüstzustand planned for G-2s:

G-2/R1: Long-range fighter-bomber. It carried a bomb up to 500 kg (1,100 lb) under the fuselage and had a modified fuel system with underwing fittings for a 300 L (80 US gal) drop tank. As a standard Bf 109G had not enough ground clearance to carry a 500 kg bomb, a jettisonable auxiliary undercarriage was added just aft of the cockpit.

G-2/R2: a reconnaissance aircraft with GM-1 and camera equipment.

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Bf 109G2R1_Russia_1942.JPG (189.89 KiB) Viewed 993 times

FYI - I was able to confirm this "Work Number" and this incident through other independent sources.

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3. Just on one page covering Bf 109 Model characteristics, drop tanks are cited 19 time(s).

see - https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Messerschmi ... ts#Bf_109G

So, the feature continued to be prominently incorporated in virtually all Bf 109 models from 1940, onwards, let alone the other fighter models as well.

For something so prominently featured throughout the Luftwaffe's design and manufacture of their AC, short of a directive from the RLM, I find it implausible that it was not used on the Eastern Front as well.

4. And finally, I am going to cite page 125 of your favorite source of reference - Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organisational and Statistical Analysis, and Military Simulation, Volume 1

Drop tanks raise a peculiar problem for determining aircraft RA [Radius of Action] factors because in WWII their use was common in certain aircraft types: specifically fighters and fighter-bombers. As their use was common, drops tanks should be considered as part of a normal or common combat load.

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Thank you.

[Joch1955]

I had to chance to review your documents, but I think you are conflating certain things.

1. 109s using drop tanks at Stalingrad. Yes that is known. Your document shows them showing up in dec. 42. I have a newer document showing the date as feb. 43. Irrespective of the correct date, the reason DTs were used for the Stalingrad airlift is because the airfields were too far away and 109s had to use DTs to provide escort support. This is a one off and not indicative of general use;

2. 109G2/R1 shot down with DTs. Again nothing unusual, no one is saying DTs were not used, they were used by recon planes and for other specialized uses;

3.Again, documents are a bit sparse on this issue, but it seems DTs were not used by regular fighter squadrons, but were kept for certain specialized uses. For example, if you look at this list from the LW dated aug. 43, it seems DTs were only regularly used by 109 G-series on the Recon version:

http://kurfurst.org/Performance_tests/1 ... le_EN.html

4. Another thing to remember is that using the 300L DT was not a simple bolt on. A rack had to be fitted to the AC and even without the DT, the rack would affect combat performance:

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/s ... /tanks.htm

Which is why they would not have been used by fighter units on a regular basis.

[Zovs]

So, the feature continued to be prominently incorporated in virtually all Bf 109 models from 1940, onwards, let alone the other fighter models as well.

For something so prominently …

Sorry I don’t see these as “prominently” overwhelming, in fact these are a few one off or specific special use cases.

[Gray Lensman_MatrixForum]

Sorry I don’t see these as “prominently” overwhelming, in fact these are a few one off or specific special use cases.

Since they are "one off" cases and documentation somewhat suggests so, then maybe they should be available to the German player in "limited" quantities to be determined by the player