The PzG issue

[rob89]

As we all well known since WitE 1, the SdKfz-251 half-tracks APCs are an organic part of the PzG (panzer-grenadier) squads; the only halftracks we actually seen in the TOE are heavy weapons or special variants.

But, IMHO, there are some open questions.

1) Are we sure that the PzG squads as designed (with 1-1 armor : what really does it mean?) have combat and survivability capacity as the mix of a SdKfz-251/1 (15-10 armor, with a special 'APC/transport' flag) plus a separated PzG squad?

The losses of PzG seem to be normally quite high and every squad lost is a SdKfz-251/1 plus the infantry ... ... In actual combat there were losses of men and/or vehicles...

2) What if the TOE will change with separated SdKfz-251/1s (as transport and fire support vehicles) and PzG squads, able to move on the APC and combat as standard infantry?

Could the game combat engine have problems ?

best regards

[loki100]

I'm no expert at this level of detail but the issue is the game has an 'element' which is the PzrGr squad. As with all elements in the game it takes the equipment mix from small arms to vehicles it needs to be created but it then operates as a single entity.

Guess that simplification runs across the entire game engine till we really can track every individual person and vehicle

this pre-release thread may include some information that answers your question:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4967787

[rob89]

thanks for your answer, but the thread you linked is related quite only to the problems of the number of SdKfz-251 produced and available.

My question is about the 'unification' of the APC and the PzG squad in the same 'ground element', with an armor factor of 1-1 (why, what its impact?)

In the real WW2 world, the PzG squads moved on the APCs but fought mainly dismounted, with their Sdkfz-251/1 as fire support element : the losses rarely involved both at the same time; so, in my opinion, it's a problem of combat effectiveness and survivability...

regards

[AdmiralHalsey]

It was definately a lot easier to replace the PzG squad than their transport. It seems odd we'd model it this way, if you ran out of halftracks the division would be unable to recieve infantry replacements for its PzG teams as they wouldn't have any halftracks and that will artifically cripple PzG Divisions. Particularly given as we're not table to make changes to the ToE.

[rob89]

If the SdKfz-251/1s were treated as APCs (a transport, with weapons and armor, so with a decent survivability), the missing vehicles compared to the number of available PzG squads (dismounted) should be substituted (automatically) by trucks, as in the real WW2 world very often happened

[barkhorn45]

Usually only one battalion per pzg regiment was gepanzert

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: barkhorn45

Usually only one battalion per pzg regiment was gepanzert

You mean one Battalion only, except for the odd exception e.g. GD & Pz Lehr, each Heer Pz division only had one of its four Pzgr Battalions armoured and even that wasn't always the case.

[rob89]

Let's try to sum my issues on the matter.

As said, PzG (and PzPio) squads have an infantry and a APC component in the same 'ground element'

Given that :

a) the speed factor is 6 (as infantry) and not that (32) of the SdKfz-251; the 'size' is =1, as infantry, and not =3, as the Sdkfz-251; so, for both, it seems that PzG (and PzPio) squads are considered 'dismounted' infantry.

b) the armor factor is 1-1-0 (not 0-0-0 as standard infantry) but not 15-10-0 as the SdKfz-251; even this choose seems to indicate a 'dismounted' infantry. In any case, what's the impact on the combat result of that (1-1-0 armor) factor? And so, what about the APC protection factor?

c) if destroyed/damaged, both infantry and the APC suffer the same result at the same time. So, in this case, it seems that they are considered 'mounted' infantry during combat. If 'dismounted', the infantry and the vehicle component should be shot separately, with different destiny.

d) the men, weapons, build cost, load cost, fuel use, ammo use factors are the sum of Infantry+Vehicle values.

e) the reliability factor is that of the Sdkfz-251.

f) the PzG (and PzPio) squads can be produced only consuming Sdkfz-251 chassis, and they have a cap.


a) and c) seem to be in contrast.
b) is a question for which I'd really like to have an answer from the designers.

best regards