GA

[tyronec]

Between the two games I am playing I have seen some 200 or so GA missions going through and not one has been intercepted by enemy fighters.
I know HLYA showed one mission in one of his games being intercepted but it seems rare.

It also seems that AS does not work to intercept GA, or if so very rarely.

So the only effective counter to GA looks to be AA.

Any thoughts, what are other players seeing ?
Are your opponents using GA, which looks to be a far more effective use of the VVS than GS as the Luftwaffe are little or no danger ?

[loki100]

I'm getting them fairly often, the AI is now doing more GA than before and auto-intercept works fine. Note the poor weather conditions, in good weather I get a lot:



edit: which takes me back to the point often made, from experience of WiTW AS is an esoteric mission with 2 key roles:

a) put your fighters over enemy airspace to create combat
b) bind your defensive fighters into a defined box

for pretty much anything else, esp defensive missions such as above, auto-intercept is the best approach

[carlkay58]

It depends on where your fighters are based and your supply net. I have no problems with my fighters intercepting Soviet aircraft as long as I pay attention to thse two things.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

...

Are your opponents using GA, which looks to be a far more effective use of the VVS than GS as the Luftwaffe are little or no danger ?

if you've pushed the VVS to GA as its mission of choice, you've won the most effective part of the air war. In the end they gain little from low level interdiction that the partisan events don't give them, GA-unit is only useful if teamed with GS and I'm really not convinced about railyard bombing

[tyronec]

if you've pushed the VVS to GA as its mission of choice, you've won the most effective part of the air war. In the end they gain little from low level interdiction that the partisan events don't give them, GA-unit is only useful if teamed with GS and I'm really not convinced about railyard bombing

My experience is that GA-Unit is highly effective for the VVS. You can seriously damage a few units every turn and then follow up with ground combat. While if they are used for GS they get intercepted en mass, even if GS is OFF for the Axis player.

I'm getting them fairly often, the AI is now doing more GA than before and auto-intercept works fine.

I am not seeing them at all in either of my games, one is playing as Soviets and the other playing Axis.
Does the range matter ? Perhaps the fighters have to be closer than the range circle ?

[loki100]

in that eg half the fighters came from a base 3 hexes away, the rest were 8 hexes distant. So that is 80 miles for a formation with a notional radius of 154 and range of 463.

On that broad sector I intercepted 3 out of 6 GA missions - given the weather I'm content with that, esp as I'm not spending an age fussing over the airbase deployments and simply have each JG strung out across a wide sector - still at the stage where I easily win A2A so no real need to concentrate.

This is why the posts about can't intercept leave me unsure what is going on - or why people are seeing it. Realise they are, and as I do, are reporting what they see, but for little effort I can get pretty much what I want



edit - in the 3 interceptions I shot down 48 bombers, the interceptions are the black battle and the 2 bombing missions with #2 shown (one is the ground bomb, the other the A2A)

[Iam5not8]

In my (limited) experience, those interceptions are logically linked to the position of the fighters versus the path taken by the ennemy GA.
They do happen as playing GER vs SOV. For example, T4 of a 41 GC versus AI SOV, Luftwaffe intercepted a SOV raid on Koenigsberg on all the way.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Iam5not8

In my (limited) experience, those interceptions are logically linked to the position of the fighters versus the path taken by the ennemy GA.
...

certainly flying over bases is an easy way to get caught but one of my intercepting groups in the eg I gave came from a base 8 hexes pretty much due south of the battle site

so its more than just working on a narrow circle around the airbase location and interception being triggered by that.

I'd agree with Carlkay, I team my fighter airbases with level 4 depots (ideally same hex, at worst 2-3 distant) so I know I have the resources needed to avoid the problem of cancelled missions

[tyronec]

I am on 1.01.07, maybe that makes a difference.
When I started the '41 game there were Soviet intercepts of T1 bombing missions but think that was the previous patch.

I tried some GA using my test bed, which is T2 of RTL. Soviets doing 20 bombing of 100 aircraft each.

Range 7 - 0 intercepts.
Range 5 - 0 intercepts
Range 3 - 0 intercepts.
Range 0, airbase bombing - 0 intercepts. This time they got 51 Axis aircraft (mostly 109s) for 64 Soviet.

I can't see what is wrong with the Axis set up, they have no ADs and have not flown any on T1 and the airbase has supplies. There are a couple of fighter groups in Memel.

[PeteJC]

Sorry for the ignorant question but is "VVS" referring to the Soviet air force?

[AlbertN]

In the games I've had - I had both Railyard bombing, and Ground Attacks on units.

The Ground Attacks were often used to 'fatigue' units fated to be attacked. They can destroy some elements but what is disrupted is 'fine', yet converted in Fatigue if I got it right. I do not know in which measure.

On the other hand, I've seen Il2 Ground Attacks in a few occasions, and these seems to be doped. Quite sure I've lost 20ish panzers in the same unit being bombed 8ish times by enemy formations.

[tyronec]

Sorry for the ignorant question but is "VVS" referring to the Soviet air force?

Yes, that's it.

In the games I've had - I had both Railyard bombing, and Ground Attacks on units.

The Ground Attacks were often used to 'fatigue' units fated to be attacked. They can destroy some elements but what is disrupted is 'fine', yet converted in Fatigue if I got it right. I do not know in which measure.

On the other hand, I've seen Il2 Ground Attacks in a few occasions, and these seems to be doped. Quite sure I've lost 20ish panzers in the same unit being bombed 8ish times by enemy formations.

Yes, my experience of the game is that very heavy bombing of ground units has a serious detrimental effect on their combat power. Am not quite sure why this works but it does.
It could also be that if you damage elements and then force a retreat it will cause further losses.

[loki100]

disrupt converts to fatigue after any battle (air or ground), so feasibly the same element can disrupt - fatigue several times

fatigued elements are more liable to damage

damaged elements are more liable to be destroyed, they are especially vunerable if the unit is forced to retreat. Hence the advice re the 1941-2 winter that if you use your Pzrs don't let them get pushed back (easier said that done) later in the turn

all disrupted elements pick up fatigue instead - guess as ever there is a leadership aspect here (prob morale as that is usually used for 'rally' type instances) and die rolls to determine how much

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I have noticed, and mentioned in my AAR's, the lack of auto intercept for the Germans. Mine looked to be because of supply since I had not flown them on any missions and my settings for interception is correct but was a bit low on supplies. Maybe it is because the Soviets only come in a few hexes of enemy territory, bomb, then fly back into their own territory before interception can get to them. Over water the Germans will auto intercept a bazillion miles away. So I chalked my misses up to supply and quick bombing.

Also of note is the Soviets doing 60+ losses to Germans on Airfield bombing. I have practice later turns with Germans doing mass bombing on Soviet fighter bases and I can 100% say the Germans can't even touch that number from my tests. I even tested bombing with the Germans after using the Soviets to do mass bombings for fatigue losses and maybe got a few extra aircraft. So I find the bombings interesting to say the least.

Also Fatigue has not been a problem in WITE2, mainly because I personally don't use the airforce much and already have a rotation set up.

I am sure the powers to be will figure it out.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Just I note that I would use Air Superiority but like Tyronec said and I paraphrase, "Air Superiority flies around may or may not intercept the enemy only to lose a great many planes to Operational losses". Something on that line but is the truth. Of course OPS losses are tied to how far you fly, how often, supply state, and other items so why subjugate yourself as a German player to such action in 41. Most of the photos I have seen in response of Germans are not Auto intercepting is from either late 41 or 42 when supply is better. To me at this point, and probably in my next game, I am just going to put the Luftwaffe in Reserve and leave it there except for the Ju-52's for all of 1941. Historical, NO. Practical, Hell Yes and I don't have to deal with the BS.

[tyronec]

Here are a couple of reports from recent games.
The top on is on T7 of my live game with Gundam. It is T07 and there are 71 Soviet GA attacks against troops. All are within Axis fighter range and none are intercepted.

The second pic is from my game with Dodo which was in May. It is T06 and the front line was in roughly the same place. Ignoring Recon, Combat aircraft losses are roughly 10:1.

Am not entirely sure but I think the Dodo game losses were from Soviet GS. So Axis fighters fly against GS but not GA ?

[Isokron]

Im no expert but my understanding was that GAs wasnt detected until entering enemy territory (air supply missions on the other hand seems to be detected far into friendly territory...). So i guess the difference might be that in Lokis AI game the AI often bomb stuff further into his territory while humans in a MP game will only bomb the spearheads with no territory buffer in front. Perhaps if Tyronec reran his experiment while taking a few hexes around Memel it would end up different?

[DesertedFox]

Am not entirely sure but I think the Dodo game losses were from Soviet GS. So Axis fighters fly against GS but not GA ?

I just lost 370 bombers on a daylight GA mission. So interception does work against GA.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Isokron

Im no expert but my understanding was that GAs wasnt detected until entering enemy territory (air supply missions on the other hand seems to be detected far into friendly territory...). So i guess the difference might be that in Lokis AI game the AI often bomb stuff further into his territory while humans in a MP game will only bomb the spearheads with no territory buffer in front. Perhaps if Tyronec reran his experiment while taking a few hexes around Memel it would end up different?

That is exactly what I am figuring too. But will watch it play out just the same.

[tyronec]

Im no expert but my understanding was that GAs wasnt detected until entering enemy territory (air supply missions on the other hand seems to be detected far into friendly territory...). So i guess the difference might be that in Lokis AI game the AI often bomb stuff further into his territory while humans in a MP game will only bomb the spearheads with no territory buffer in front. Perhaps if Tyronec reran his experiment while taking a few hexes around Memel it would end up different?

Could be that is the reason. I suspect that the combat Loki posted was a GS rather than a GA because the combat result is 'Held', but that is not to say that he isn't getting some GA intercepts.

In the game the most effective use of GA, in my opinion, is to heavily bomb a small number of units that are going to be subject to critical combats during the ground phase. If you bomb them enough you can reduce them to a fraction of their starting CV, in some cases down to zero (specifically at the start of the VtB scenario if anyone wants to confirm this).
For Axis early war this is not good tactics because you can get better results using GS.

However with the early Soviets their GS will generally get intercepted and so is far less effective.
If the Soviets can win say 1 or 2 combats a turn that they wouldn't otherwise have won, say from T5 onwards in the '41 Campaign, then that is going to have a significant effect on game balance. Especially if you are thereby opening up a pocket or two.

My experience in the two games I am playing, StB as Soviets and the '41 Campaign as Axis, is that this kind of GA on the front line is immune to 'default' interception. The AS test bed didn't get any interception either, I did manage to get some 'default' interception from it but am not sure exactly what the conditions are to trigger it. Maybe a hex adjacent to an airfield with a glut of supplies on it.

I have asked Gundam to stop using GA in our '41 game and I will stop using it in the StB game (though we are waiting for the next patch to continue with that game).
Actually I think at present that 'no GA' would be a good house rule for any game, excepting maybe Barbarossa T1 but it seems that GA is not really necessary even for that.