Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]

[Wiedrock]

Both SMG Squads are currently 11Men. Both numbers as far as I have found TOEs were lower.

Suggetion:

• Reduce ID:798 - Submachine Gun Squad to be 10Men
• Reduce ID:815 - Submachine Gun Squad (+) to be 9Men
• Add lost Manpower as Support Squads

There's more what could be improved by adding more Squad types.

Currently in Game.

Soviet vanilla SMG.png (285.85 KiB) Viewed 391 times

ID:798 - Submachine Gun Squad
Used as normal SMG Squads inside Rifle Divisions which were mostly part of a SMG Company.
It started with 10Men and eventually became 9Men in ~1944 (not sure when exactly).
http://niehorster.org/012_ussr/42_organ ... __hqs.html
http://www.bayonetstrength.uk/RedArmy/R ... aderpg.htm

Evolution of SMG in Infantry Divisions

Soviet SMG Squads.png (371.14 KiB) Viewed 391 times

ID:815 - Submachine Gun Squad (+) +ID:798 as Destants
ID:815 is used as "Rifle" Squads which were converted to fully SMG+LMG when inside Tank Brigades! Those had 9Men, not 10, not 11.
ID:798 is used to represent the Tank Destants, which had 10Men, not 9, not 11.
http://niehorster.org/012_ussr/44_organ ... tk-smg.htm
http://www.bayonetstrength.uk/RedArmy/R ... aderpg.htm

A Tank brigade Example

Tank Brigade.png (23.38 KiB) Viewed 391 times

Further side note:
Generally when looking into all that Soviet Squad sizes, I'd suggest to re-visit the Soviet TOEs and create like ~10more Types of Soviet Squads (differetiate between Foot / Tank Brigades / Motorized-Mechanized Brigades ....and add Tank Destant Squads for the flavour! ).

[Wiedrock]

ID:815 - Submachine Gun Squad (+) +ID:798 as Destants
ID:815 is used as "Rifle" Squads which were converted to fully SMG+LMG when inside Tank Brigades! Those had 9Men, not 10, not 11.
ID:798 is used to represent the Tank Destants, which had 10Men, not 9, not 11.

From 31 August 1944 the TOE of a the Motor SMG Battalion 010/502 of a Tank Brigade.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=130459870

[Wiedrock]

Motrorised Rifle Battalion (Mech Brigade)
In this thread there's a chart ~1943 which shows the SMG Squad of the Motrorised Rifle Battalion (Mech Brigade) to have 9Men (not 11). This can also be seen here and there.

[Wiedrock]

Both SMG Squads are currently 11Men. Both numbers as far as I have found TOEs were lower.

Suggetion:

Reduce ID:798 - Submachine Gun Squad to be 10Men
Reduce ID:815 - Submachine Gun Squad (+) to be 9Men
Add lost Manpower as Support Squads

There's more what could be improved by adding more Squad types.

Implemented in WOTE in combination with reduction of Rifle Squad 43 size 11Men→9Men.
Changeshave been automatically calculated using this Google Docs Sheet, using normal rounding rules.
TOE/OB Change List:

Code: Select all

[id]	[name]	[suffix]	[current support] → [new support]
2081	42	Guards Tank Corps	208	→	210
2082	43a	Guards Tank Corps	222	→	224
2083	43b	Guards Tank Corps	353	→	371
2084	44	Guards Tank Corps	309	→	327
2086	42a	Tank Corps	121	→	123
2087	42b	Tank Corps	208	→	210
2088	43a	Tank Corps	221	→	223
2089	43b	Tank Corps	353	→	371
2090	44	Tank Corps	307	→	325
2091	45	Tank Corps	307	→	325
2093	42b LL	Tank Corps	208	→	210
2094	43a LL	Guards Tank Corps	222	→	224
2101	42a	Tank Brigade	31	→	FALSE
2102	42b	Tank Brigade	26	→	FALSE
2103	43a	Tank Brigade	29	→	FALSE
2104	43b	Tank Brigade	33	→	35
2106	42a British LL	Tank Brigade	31	→	FALSE
2107	42b British LL	Tank Brigade	26	→	FALSE
2109	42a American LL	Tank Brigade	31	→	FALSE
2110	42b American LL	Tank Brigade	26	→	FALSE
2111	43a American LL	Tank Brigade	29	→	FALSE
2112	43b American LL	Tank Brigade	33	→	35
2114	45	Guards Heavy Tank Brigade	80	→	82
2115	42	Heavy Tank Brigade	31	→	FALSE
2116	45	Heavy Tank Brigade	45	→	47
2118	42	Flame Tank Brigade	26	→	FALSE
2119	44	Flame Tank Brigade	33	→	35
2121	44	Light SU Brigade	27	→	28
2122	45	Medium SU Brigade	27	→	28
2123	45	Heavy SU Brigade	27	→	28
2126	42	Destroyer Anti-Tank Brigade	50	→	FALSE
2133	44	Heavy Tank Regiment	8	→	FALSE
2137	43	Separate Tank Regiment	14	→	FALSE
2138	44a	Separate Tank Regiment	8	→	FALSE
2139	44b	Separate Tank Regiment	7	→	FALSE
2147	42	Destroyer Anti-Tank Regiment	16	→	FALSE
2153	44	Light SU Regiment	5	→	FALSE
2156	44	Medium SU Regiment	5	→	FALSE
2159	44	Heavy SU Regiment	5	→	FALSE
2181	42	Guards Mechanized Corps	413	→	415
2182	43	Guards Mechanized Corps	361	→	363
2183	44	Guards Mechanized Corps	424	→	426
2184	45	Guards Mechanized Corps	390	→	426
2186	44 LL	Guards Mechanzied Corps	424	→	426
2187	45 LL	Guards Mechanized Corps	390	→	426
2189	42	Mechanized Corps	413	→	415
2190	43	Mechanized Corps	361	→	363
2191	44	Mechanized Corps	424	→	426
2192	45	Mechanized Corps	390	→	426
2194	42 LL	Mechanized Corps	413	→	415
2195	43 LL	Mechanized Corps	361	→	363
2196	44 LL	Mechanized Corps	424	→	426
2197	45 LL	Mechanized Corps	390	→	426
2202	42	Mechanized Brigade	83	→	84
2203	43	Mechanized Brigade	73	→	FALSE
2207	41	Motorized Brigade	57	→	FALSE
2208	42	Motorized Brigade	57	→	FALSE
2248	42a	Mountain Rifle Corps	850	→	855
2249	42b	Mountain Rifle Corps	766	→	771
2250	42c	Mountain Rifle Corps	543	→	547
2251	43	Mountain Rifle Corps	543	→	547
2252	44	Mountain Rifle Corps	474	→	564
2253	45	Mountain Rifle Corps	435	→	529
2257	41c	Mountain Rifle Division	279	→	280
2258	42a	Mountain Rifle Division	304	→	305
2259	42b	Mountain Rifle Division	220	→	221
2260	42c	Mountain Rifle Division	181	→	182
2261	43	Mountain Rifle Division	181	→	182
2262	44	Mountain Rifle Division	158	→	188
2263	45	Mountain Rifle Division	145	→	176
2265	45	Mountain Brigade	90	→	99
2267	43	Guards Airborne Corps	630	→	638
2268	44	Guards Airborne Corps	564	→	658
2269	45	Guards Airborne Corps	525	→	651
2271	43 Reduced	Guards Airborne Corps	314	→	318
2272	44 Reduced	Guards Airborne Corps	300	→	352
2273	45 Reduced	Guards Airborne Corps	300	→	364
2275	43	Guards Airborne Division	210	→	213
2276	44	Guards Airborne Division	188	→	219
2277	45	Guards Airborne Division	175	→	217
2280	41b	Airborne Brigade	33	→	FALSE
2281	42	Airborne Brigade	33	→	FALSE
2283	44	Airborne Brigade	58	→	70
2286	41b	Naval Infantry Brigade	93	→	94
2287	42	Naval Infantry Brigade	120	→	121
2295	42	Ski Battalion	[20	→	21] #was already modded - should have 8Squads - see separate Thread
2302	41a	Guards Rifle Corps	766	→	770
2303	41b	Guards Rifle Corps	779	→	784
2304	42a	Guards Rifle Corps	723	→	729
2305	42b	Guards Rifle Corps	766	→	772
2306	43	Guards Rifle Corps	630	→	638
2307	44	Guards Rifle Corps	564	→	658
2308	45	Guards Rifle Corps	525	→	651
2310	43 Reduced	Guards Rifle Corps	314	→	318
2311	44 Reduced	Guards Rifle Corps	300	→	352
2312	45 Reduced	Guards Rifle Corps	300	→	364
2314	42a	Rifle Corps	850	→	855
2315	42b	Rifle Corps	766	→	771
2316	42c	Rifle Corps	543	→	547
2317	43	Rifle Corps	543	→	547
2318	44	Rifle Corps	474	→	564
2319	45	Rifle Corps	435	→	529
2321	43 Reduced	Rifle Corps	325	→	328
2322	44 Reduced	Rifle Corps	284	→	341
2323	45 Reduced	Rifle Corps	260	→	318
2326	41b	Guards Rifle Division	279	→	280
2327	42a	Guards Rifle Division	305	→	308
2328	42b	Guards Rifle Division	220	→	223
2329	43	Guards Rifle Division	210	→	213
2330	44	Guards Rifle Division	188	→	219
2331	45	Guards Rifle Division	175	→	217
2335	41c	Rifle Division	279	→	280
2336	42a	Rifle Division	304	→	305
2337	42b	Rifle Division	220	→	221
2338	42c	Rifle Division	181	→	182
2339	43	Rifle Division	181	→	182
2340	44	Rifle Division	158	→	188
2341	45	Rifle Division	145	→	176
2348	41c Reduced Shtat	RD	90	→	FALSE
2349	42a Reduced Shtat	RD	75	→	FALSE
2350	42b Reduced Shtat	RD	96	→	FALSE
2351	42c Reduced Shtat	RD	96	→	FALSE
2352	43 Reduced Shtat	RD	96	→	FALSE
2359	41	Rifle Brigade	102	→	103
2360	42a	Rifle Brigade	92	→	93
2361	42b	Rifle Brigade	124	→	125
2362	43	Rifle Brigade	124	→	125
2363	44	Rifle Brigade	124	→	140
2587	44	Yug. Partisan Division	110	→	127
2588	44b	Yug. Partisan Battalion	10	→	13
2590	45	Yug. Infantry Division	285	→	311

[MechFO]

German report from September 43 on the changes in the numbers of issued Soviet automatic weapons.

RH 11-I/52a 504ff

[Wiedrock]

Yep, they've gone truely crazy on their SMGs.
That "b)" and the first "Beutebefehl" is interesting, I did so far only see this being mentioned in the Mountain Divisions, not mentioned in the Red Army Handbook/Companion.
I've looked in quite some of the 1943/44 "makeshift-TOEs"-painitings I could find (it's been a while) of which there were many varying versions but I can't remember seeing this SMG'ification of a whole additional Platoon being mentioned...but it's possible that I confused this additional SMG Platoon with the regular SMG Companies/Formations.

The regular addition of an SMG Company per Regiment and two for the GUARDs is normal. That's one example of the "10Men" Squads I am always referring to (which never was different ...except for maybe some "reduced strength weird-TOEs"). During that time the regular Squads had 9Men and 50/50 1LMG or 2LMG per Squad.
So replacing 1/3 of Rifle Squad 42 and 1/3 of Rifle Squad (+) ...so 1/3rd of all Platoons, with the SMG Squad (+) which I corrected to be 9Men Squads would fit pretty well I suppose. They frame it as "replacing the Rifles with SMGs", indicating that they kept their LMGs,...but who knows...