Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN
Mostly - is it really felt the difference in Air Skill of the various HQs?

Not that I can tell from such missions results. It would probably be felt in time though.

[Zovs]

So I have ran five tests thus far with the current beta patch (I'll be running a 'live' test with the latest beta patch for an upcoming AAR game as well using some of these principles).

The results are interesting:

Version Installed: 01.01.15Beta
Exe File Version: 1.01.15_Beta

jubjub's original T1 AD results
27 AD
Total sorties: 3600
Lost: 62
Damaged: 99

Pilots KIA: 17
Fighters: 11
Fighter Bombers: 12
Tactical Bombers: 3
Level Bombers: 36

Air Losses: 0
Flak Losses: 15
Operational Losses: 47
Total Loses: 62

Soviet:
Pilots KIA: 542
Fighters: 672
Fighter Bombers: 1,733
Tactical Bombers: 149
Level Bombers: 455
Recon: 174
Transport: 32
Torpedo Bomber: 39

Air combat Losses: 11
Lost on the ground: 3,243
Total Losses: 3,254



metaphore's original T1 AD results (first test had 85 total German losses and about 40 more Soviet losses).
24 AD
Total sorties: 2888
Lost: 102
Damaged: 86

Pilots KIA: 56
Fighters: 3
Fighter Bombers: 10
Tactical Bombers: 10
Level Bombers: 79

Air Combat Losses: 31
Flak Losses: 19
Operational Losses: 52
Total Lost: 102

Soviet:
Pilots KIA: 496
Fighters: 679
Fighter Bombers: 1,754
Tactical Bombers: 149
Level Bombers: 443
Recon: 167
Transport: 15
Torpedo Bomber: 40

Air combat Losses:
Lost on the ground: 3,247
Total Losses: 3,247


my-tweaks to the metaphore T1 AD results #1
26 AD
Total sorties: 3004
Lost: 85
Damaged: 72

Pilots KIA: 24
Fighters: 6
Fighter Bombers: 14
Tactical Bombers: 7
Level Bombers: 58

Air Losses: 0
Flak Losses: 22
Operational Losses: 63
Total Losses: 85

Soviet:
Pilots KIA: 574
Fighters: 681
Fighter Bombers: 1,911
Tactical Bombers: 149
Level Bombers: 433
Recon: 183
Transport: 40
Torpedo Bomber: 32

Air Losses: 0
Lost on the ground: 3,429
Total Losses: 3,429


my-tweaks-2 to the metaphore T1 AD results #2
28 AD
Total sorties: 3131
Lost: 109
Damaged: 91

Pilots KIA: 51
Fighters: 0
Fighter Bombers: 14
Tactical Bombers: 4
Level Bombers: 91

Air Combat Losses: 34
Flak Losses: 12
Operational Losses: 63
Total Losses: 109

Soviet:
Pilots KIA: 600
Fighters: 681
Fighter Bombers: 2,010
Tactical Bombers: 149
Level Bombers: 436
Recon: 179
Transport: 40
Torpedo Bomber: 37

Air Combat Losses: 7
Lost on the ground: 3,524
Total Losses: 3,532

[Teo41_ITA]

Zovs, could you share your tweaks? I am also playing around with manual directives and I will be happy to compare them with mine (currently testing different altitudes and boxes vs. specific airfields).

[GibsonPete]

Interesting results Zovs, I may have to 'reexamine' my turn one air. I am satisfied with my results 40 to 80 lost with over 3000 kills but it is time consuming to set up. Jubjub's & Metaphore's box method seems easier and faster to setup.

[Zovs]

Sure:

Tweaks:

Luftflotte 1
GA 177,130 (Riga)
Strike: 1
Priority: Norm
Req AC(Esc): 40(Auto)

GA 188,136 (Daugavpils)
Strike: 1
Priority: Norm
Req AC(Esc): 40(Auto)


Luftflotte 2
Changed 4th and 5th missions priority to Norm

Luftflotte 4
Changed all unescorted missions to Priority: Norm

GA 194,186 (Tarnopol) * testing now - okay
Strike: 1
Req AC(Esc): 40(10)

GA 206,185 (Vinnitsa) * testing now - disaster will scrub and retest
Strike: 1
Priority: Norm
Req AC(Esc): 40(Auto)

GA 212,188 (Teplik) * testing now - disaster will scrub and rest
Area: 1(9)
Strike: 2
Priority: Norm
Req AC(Esc): 40(Auto)



My tweaks using metaphore's as a base and the tweaks above results:
35 AD
Total sorties: 3160
Lost: 152 (The mission to Vinnitsa got trashed, lost 35 out of 40 there, and the last one in that group lost 22. so I lost 55 from those last two Luftflotte 4 missions.)
Damaged: 100

Pilots KIA: 82
Fighters: 12
Fighter Bombers: 15
Tactical Bombers: 1
Level Bombers: 124

Air Combat Losses: 57
Flak Losses: 18
Operational Losses: 77
Total Lost: 152

Soviet
Pilots KIA: 565
Fighters: 677
Fighter Bombers: 1,945
Tactical Bombers: 178
Level Bombers: 448
Recon: 194
Transport: 38
Torpedo Bomber: 38

Air Combat Losses: 4
Lost on the ground: 3,504
Total Losses: 3,508


I can to better.

[Zovs]

Originally jubjub set most of Luft 4 to 30(10) or 30(Auto), but metaphore used 40(10) and 40(Auto) and that seems to incur higher German Losses.

So my next test was to remove those 2 disasters from Luft 4 (Vinnitsa and Teplik) and changing the ones in Luft 4 from 40(10) and 40(Auto) to 30(10) and 30(Auto). I am still leaving the 2 extra ones in Luft 1, those seem okay. But all unescorted missions I have been setting to priority Norm and in all cases where warranted avoid the flak.

2nd test:

My tweaks using metaphore's as a base and the jubjub tweaks above yields the best so far:
33 AD
Total sorties: 2898
Lost: 74
Damaged: 94

Pilots KIA: 24
Fighters: 7
Fighter Bombers: 11
Tactical Bombers: 3
Level Bombers: 53

Air Combat Losses: 0
Flak Losses: 18
Operational Losses: 56
Total Lost: 74

Soviet
Pilots KIA: 532
Fighters: 680
Fighter Bombers: 1,830
Tactical Bombers: 178
Level Bombers: 417
Recon: 169
Transport: 19
Torpedo Bomber: 40

Air Combat Losses: 0
Lost on the ground: 3,333
Total Losses: 3,333

I can live with these results.

[Zovs]

Here are some tests I did:

[Teo41_ITA]

Interesting! Thanks for sharing this!

PS: may I ask you where did you get the 1.02.00_beta patch from? [:)]

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Originally jubjub set most of Luft 4 to 30(10) or 30(Auto), but metaphore used 40(10) and 40(Auto) and that seems to incur higher German Losses.

So my next test was to remove those 2 disasters from Luft 4 (Vinnitsa and Teplik) and changing the ones in Luft 4 from 40(10) and 40(Auto) to 30(10) and 30(Auto). I am still leaving the 2 extra ones in Luft 1, those seem okay. But all unescorted missions I have been setting to priority Norm and in all cases where warranted avoid the flak.

Well, actually I was simply trying to recopy exactly what jubjub did but obviously failed at this point
My own method is pretty different from those ADs as I've set 83 ADs in my last test (posted above) without using a single fighter (all were set to "rest").

[Zovs]

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA

Interesting! Thanks for sharing this!

PS: may I ask you where did you get the 1.02.00_beta patch from? [:)]

I am part of the alpha/beta testing team.

[Zovs]

ORIGINAL: metaphore

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Originally jubjub set most of Luft 4 to 30(10) or 30(Auto), but metaphore used 40(10) and 40(Auto) and that seems to incur higher German Losses.

So my next test was to remove those 2 disasters from Luft 4 (Vinnitsa and Teplik) and changing the ones in Luft 4 from 40(10) and 40(Auto) to 30(10) and 30(Auto). I am still leaving the 2 extra ones in Luft 1, those seem okay. But all unescorted missions I have been setting to priority Norm and in all cases where warranted avoid the flak.

Well, actually I was simply trying to recopy exactly what jubjub did but obviously failed at this point
My own method is pretty different from those ADs as I've set 83 ADs in my last test (posted above) without using a single fighter (all were set to "rest").

You did quite well actually. I received jubjub's file and was just doing a comparison between his and yours. There is only a slight deviation, mostly in the south, where he used 30(10) or 30(Auto) and his order was a bit different then yours.

With my "modified" one, I used yours as a base, which is quite a fantastic job you have done and educated me on some of the more finer parts of the manual air war so I think you very much for that. I just took what you did and analyzed what jubjub did and ran tests of all yours. Then for my own I 'experimented' a bit and added 2 more unescorted GA for Luft 1, and one (I think) more for Luft 4 (yes, I tried 3 and failed on the two).

By switching Luft 4 to 30(10)/30(Auto) that helped reduce the Axis losses.

Also, jubjub did not use a Hungarian GA, I like using it as per your setting.

Personally I think what you did is great, and with a little tweaking on my part I am pretty happy with the results (and what the new patch seems to be showing).

I may try to 'codify' pages 3-6 into a PDF, but first I need to get my CG41 moving now that Turn 1 air is most successfully.

By the way all our results are above historic results for the first day and week. I found a great sources or two and on average the historical account is something like 35 German planes lost to 1250 or so on D1. For the whole week it was something like less then 100 to 3 to 4 k IIRC.

[56ajax]

This is most helpful and I have had much fun in recreating these ADs.

Question : What causes the system to over ride your selected staging airbase and use another one miles away?

[GibsonPete]

Question : What causes the system to over ride your selected staging airbase and use another one miles away?

My Answer: The magic of AI assist. Turn it off.

[jubjub]

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

Question : What causes the system to over ride your selected staging airbase and use another one miles away?

My Answer: The magic of AI assist. Turn it off.

I think he's referring to the automatic airbase selection by AI. If you want the AI to honor your airbase pick, you need to set 'follow path' to yes.

[56ajax]

ORIGINAL: jubjub

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

Question : What causes the system to over ride your selected staging airbase and use another one miles away?

My Answer: The magic of AI assist. Turn it off.

I think he's referring to the automatic airbase selection by AI. If you want the AI to honor your airbase pick, you need to set 'follow path' to yes.

Thanks very much. I will give that a crack and see what happens.

(Can we have 'follow path' changed to 'please use my selections you !@!#$'?)

[56ajax]

I changed the Follow Path to Yes which did force the system to use my Staging Base. (There was a small bug that effects the first? created AD whereby the Follow Path option does not appear on Edit. Gave me a scare but there was a simple work around.)

Every now and then the system gets a good die roll which clobbers one of my missions.

Not finished yet.

[Hardradi]

.

[56ajax]

Well I have created the ADs as per metaphore (thank you) with some errors I must admit. Some air combat is being generated and those ME110s are stinkers. I will fix up those errors and try some tweaks but in the mean time.....

[56ajax]

My first tweak....

[56ajax]

Just updated to 1.02.01_Beta and ran without any AD changes. One Rumanian AD get clobbered and counts for all Air combat losses.