Let us reform the Red Army of Workers and Peasants! (Advice needed)

[Q-Ball]

Comrades!

What is the best use of AA attachments? Are AA units worth devoting manpower/trucks to get on the map at scale, or no?

I feel like they need to be high experience to have an impact on the LW, but German Flak is certainly effective

Thoughts on this?

[56ajax]

AA - I dont go out of my way to build them up but if they are available get them on the map. They are reasonably effective at shooting down the LW.

[Shupov]

Comrades!

What is the best use of AA attachments? Are AA units worth devoting manpower/trucks to get on the map at scale, or no?

I feel like they need to be high experience to have an impact on the LW, but German Flak is certainly effective

Thoughts on this?

Turn 86 2/7/43 is the turning point for Soviet AA. That's when the 43 AA Regiment becomes available with no AP cost and a build limit of 265. Their 85mm 52-K guns are effective against the Luftwaffe and you should have over 1000 in the pool at this point.

I build many of these and spread them liberally around Corps units and HQ's. By mid-1943 they are shooting down many Axis aircraft.

Picture1.png (191.69 KiB) Viewed 328 times

[M60A3TTS]

I can't afford the vehicle commitment. They are better employed in other support units. AA is very spotty in term of effectiveness, and yes I've had similar flak kill numbers, without a single AA support unit.

[Shupov]

I can't afford the vehicle commitment. They are better employed in other support units. AA is very spotty in term of effectiveness, and yes I've had similar flak kill numbers, without a single AA support unit.

I'm curious, in your current game at T93 how many 85mm AA are in the pool? At that point I believe they only deploy with AA SU's. They don't deploy with AT starting with T46 when the 42b Anti-Tank Regiment appears. So potentially there are thousands of 85mm guns sitting around.

But yes, the 43 AA Regiment uses up to 152 trucks to carry 16 - 85mm and 16 - 37mm flak.

[M60A3TTS]

5001

[Shupov]

Over 5000 85mm guns with nowhere to go.

On further research I would modify my advice for Soviet AA SU's and not attach them "liberally" to HQ's. Per Joel and Wiedrock only those AA SU's attached directly to combat units will commit to ground battles. Those attached to HQ's won't commit, nor will they fire flak during ground battles.

Arguments could still be made whether Soviet AA SU's are worth the cost in trucks. Soviet ground units need all the help they can get against German ground support. There are plenty of empty slots available in division and corps size units for AA SU.

Probably the best approach is situational. Attach AA SU's to combat units when excess trucks are available (if that ever happens!). Disband them when trucks are in short supply.

[Wiedrock]

On further research I would modify my advice for Soviet AA SU's and not attach them "liberally" to HQ's. Per Joel and Wiedrock only those AA SU's attached directly to combat units will commit to ground battles. Those attached to HQ's won't commit, nor will they fire flak during ground battles.

I need to correct,
"Per Joel and Wiedrock only those AA SU's attached directly to combat units will [perform AA shooting in] ground battles. Those attached to HQ's [can] commit, [but will not] fire flak ["AA"] during ground battles."
(ignoring here adjacent Hexes and such stuff...)
Flak SUs do Ground fighting, when commited in any way to a ground battle (direct attachment or "roll").

Besides this, I think you should get as many "big assets" into the game as you can, they are from how I have tested always more manpower efficient (need less, kill more), it all being limited by trucks is somewhat weird, considering how many, many forces/units the Soviets had.

[Wiedrock]

When it only is about using the heavier Flak (as Ground fighters)...then you could build PVO AA Regiments and attach them to Armies, when they get rolled into combat you have 108 more guns (43 variant) 12x37mm+48x75mm+48x85mm and they are unmotorized, so only using ~20 Trucks per 100% Regiment.
As a side note, but I did not dig deep on this, the larger caliber Flak inside the AT-Regiments early in the game, when put into Odessa performed ridiculously well compared to usually/other elements in my experience, not sure what that's based on (defense+high Fort Levels I'd assume). But this may not at all apply to "rolled" PVO AA Units,....at least not gaining the Fort Bonuses I'd assume...would need proper testing.

[K62K62]

I highly recommend building all the MG battalions on T1 since they cost 0 AP to build. They contain 18x 45mm AT guns and 6x 82mm mortars and make good anti-tank SUs once they're allowed to train to 45+ experience. MG battalions have more 45mm AT guns than AT battalions (18 versus 14). In fact, MG battalion firepower is comparable to AT regiments, which have 20 AT guns and no mortars. (But it's hard to replenish AT regiments since they use the 85mm AA gun, which is produced in much smaller numbers than the 45mm AT gun used by MG battalions.)

[M60A3TTS]

I would like to say that although I was skeptical at first, the Soviet 20 gun AT regiment armed with the 45mm isn't all that bad.

Consider:

The Panzer III is still going to be around through much of 1943 so the 45mm gun can contribute for some time.

There are a number of German panzer divisions, again in 1943, that still may be equipped with the Czech Pz-38t(e). The 45mm ATG can definitely deal with them.

The regiment requires 240 men, as opposed to 2,536 in a PVO AA Regiment. The AT regiment is motorized and needs about 75 trucks.

That also means you are getting +5NM motorization bonus in mid-1942. If you keep a decent number on hand, you can also pick up the additional +10 NM bonus for guards.

Whatever you might get to commit in a die roll at the army level, you could alternatively be rolling for all sorts of artillery that can suppress targets.

https://imgur.com/a/qnmABWI

[Wiedrock]

45mm are also fine against Panthers, even the old ones.
This is one Soviet turn, 98 penetrations of which 10 are of the new 45mm Gun, the rest is the initial one.

Code: Select all

26,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 246 - pen 57 - arm 48
26,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 246 - pen 96 - arm 48
26,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 246 - pen 57 - arm 48
28,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 168 - pen 57 - arm 48
28,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 57 - arm 48 - range 168
28,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 156 - pen 58 - arm 48
33,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 561 - pen 53 - arm 48
33,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 561 - pen 53 - arm 48
33,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 96 - arm 48 - range 270
33,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 270 - pen 56 - arm 48
33,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 56 - arm 48 - range 293
33,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 293 - pen 96 - arm 48
33,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 293 - pen 56 - arm 48
33,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 295 - pen 56 - arm 48
33,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 295 - pen 56 - arm 48
33,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 56 - arm 48 - range 295
33,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 58 - arm 48 - range 147
36,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 56 - arm 48 - range 259
36,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 72 - pen 59 - arm 48
36,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 99 - pen 99 - arm 48
36,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 58 - arm 48 - range 93
36,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 93 - pen 58 - arm 48
36,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 63 - pen 59 - arm 48
42,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M42 L/66 Gun - pen 67 - arm 48 - range 212
42,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M42 L/66 Gun - range 212 - pen 67 - arm 48
42,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M42 L/66 Gun - range 101 - pen 68 - arm 48
42,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M42 L/66 Gun - range 101 - pen 115 - arm 48
42,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M42 L/66 Gun - pen 117 - arm 48 - range 24
45,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M42 L/66 Gun - pen 66 - arm 48 - range 237
48,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 202 - pen 57 - arm 48
48,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 59 - arm 48 - range 16
48,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 15 - pen 59 - arm 48
55,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 796 - pen 50 - arm 48
55,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 50 - arm 48 - range 796
55,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 348 - pen 55 - arm 48
55,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 348 - pen 94 - arm 48
55,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 56 - arm 48 - range 302
55,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 330 - pen 56 - arm 48
55,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 330 - pen 56 - arm 48
60,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 58 - arm 48 - range 94
60,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 94 - pen 58 - arm 48
61,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 57 - arm 48 - range 204
61,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 204 - pen 97 - arm 48
61,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 57 - arm 48 - range 220
61,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 220 - pen 57 - arm 48
61,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 226 - pen 57 - arm 48
61,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 97 - arm 48 - range 226
61,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 208 - pen 57 - arm 48
61,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 236 - pen 57 - arm 48
61,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 97 - arm 48 - range 241
61,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 27 - pen 101 - arm 48
61,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 26 - pen 59 - arm 48
63,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 195 - pen 57 - arm 48
65,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 324 - pen 56 - arm 48
65,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 56 - arm 48 - range 324
65,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 333 - pen 56 - arm 48
65,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 333 - pen 56 - arm 48
69,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 613 - pen 52 - arm 48
69,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 613 - pen 52 - arm 48
69,4,Panther A damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 56 - arm 45 - range 321
69,4,Panther A damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 56 - arm 45 - range 321
69,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 349 - pen 55 - arm 48
69,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 94 - arm 48 - range 349
69,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 198 - pen 57 - arm 48
69,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 57 - arm 48 - range 198
69,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 198 - pen 97 - arm 48
69,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 226 - pen 57 - arm 48
69,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 221 - pen 57 - arm 48
69,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 221 - pen 57 - arm 48
69,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 221 - pen 57 - arm 48
69,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 97 - arm 48 - range 215
69,4,Panther A destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 103 - pen 58 - arm 45
86,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 707 - pen 51 - arm 48
86,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M42 L/66 Gun - pen 60 - arm 48 - range 714
86,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M42 L/66 Gun - range 696 - pen 60 - arm 48
86,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 180 - pen 98 - arm 48
86,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 180 - pen 98 - arm 48
86,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 175 - pen 57 - arm 48
86,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 175 - pen 57 - arm 48
86,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 59 - arm 48 - range 69
86,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 59 - arm 48 - range 69
92,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 56 - arm 48 - range 288
92,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 288 - pen 56 - arm 48
92,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 96 - arm 48 - range 288
92,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 306 - pen 56 - arm 48
92,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 306 - pen 56 - arm 48
92,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 293 - pen 56 - arm 48
92,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 56 - arm 48 - range 301
92,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 274 - pen 96 - arm 48
92,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 170 - pen 57 - arm 48
92,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 98 - arm 48 - range 182
92,4,Panther G damaged by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - pen 57 - arm 48 - range 182
92,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 79 - pen 59 - arm 48
92,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 79 - pen 59 - arm 48
95,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 36 - pen 59 - arm 48
95,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M37/38 L/46 Gun - range 71 - pen 59 - arm 48
96,4,Panther G destroyed by 45mm M42 L/66 Gun - range 187 - pen 67 - arm 48
96,4,damaged Panther G destroyed by 45mm M42 L/66 Gun - range 142 - pen 68 - arm 48

[Denniss]

they seem to favor shooting at Panthers side armor, was that a german or soviet attack?

[Wiedrock]

they seem to favor shooting at Panthers side armor, was that a german or soviet attack?

Was Ai-Ai Soviet turn T182, so Soviets attacking (didn't have the "end turn saves" on).

[Q-Ball]

An interesting discussion Comrades on the various AT options.

One note on those MG Bns that another poster brought up.....they have 18 x 45mmAT guns. They are NOT motorized, which does cost that +5 NM, but also means they use very few trucks. That may have some utility as well if trucks are short, but 45mm AT guns are not. (They also can't be Guards, which is another factor)