The Formation Editor - Or Lack Thereof

[artao5]

I'm rather surprised how basic formations are in CMO. Fairly flexible, but a PITA to use.
Who remembers Harpoon III's formation editor? IMO that's the bar to shoot for.
Defined arcs at defined distances, and it's super easy to drag a patrol zone to a different place. ALSO it has threat axises, a very useful feature to quickly move many units to fleet defense positions in one go.
Global Conflict Blue 2 attempted a similar thing, but directly on the UI map. The arcs/zones are a bit hard to properly grab tho. Too bad development stopped on that. I'm pretty sure CMANO killed it off cuz the devs just bought that LOL.
CMO could take that and run with it. It would make managing formations MUCH quicker, easier, and more intuitive. And adding threat axises would be a great UX boon.
No defining a bunch of reference points, and then having to individually move each to change the parameters of the patrol zone.
Here's a very good video that does a comparison between formation editors. Including CMANO as of 8 years ago. It doesn't appear much has changed in that time regarding formations in CMO.

Harpoon III starts ~33:10, CMANO is immediately prior.
https://youtu.be/_sDZH-ZTKE4 (Can't get the embedding video to work. Dunno why.)

[thewood1]

Video isn't working.

I find the CMO formation editor 10x better than any of Harpoon's, in all of its iterations. The power of dynamically adjusting the formation based on events, position, mission is a huge upgrade over any form of Harpoon. Add on top of that the mission-based planning using RPs for more complex formations is something Harpoon can't hold a candle to. I would suggest play the game for more than a few days before passing that kind of judgement. Here is something specific Harpoon could never do.

Screenshot 2023-03-04 065840.png (245.66 KiB) Viewed 1407 times

Having prebuilt formations that you can execute based on mission needs and even changing needs. I use diamond for open ocean, but switch to column in tight spaces like Hormuz. There things in Harpoon that are simpler and easier to use. But CMO is built around giving the scenario builder and the player tools to plan out missions and scenarios.

I hear echoes of Hermann Hum

[BDukes]

Yeah or Alan Caso. Tone and didn't know enough to know the video wouldn't work.

I don' t think any regular player has logged any complaints on the formation editor at all. So it is probably fine.

M

[ronmexico111]

I'm rather surprised how basic formations are in CMO. Fairly flexible, but a PITA to use.
Who remembers Harpoon III's formation editor? IMO that's the bar to shoot for.
Defined arcs at defined distances, and it's super easy to drag a patrol zone to a different place. ALSO it has threat axises, a very useful feature to quickly move many units to fleet defense positions in one go.
Global Conflict Blue 2 attempted a similar thing, but directly on the UI map. The arcs/zones are a bit hard to properly grab tho. Too bad development stopped on that. I'm pretty sure CMANO killed it off cuz the devs just bought that LOL.
CMO could take that and run with it. It would make managing formations MUCH quicker, easier, and more intuitive. And adding threat axises would be a great UX boon.
No defining a bunch of reference points, and then having to individually move each to change the parameters of the patrol zone.
Here's a very good video that does a comparison between formation editors. Including CMANO as of 8 years ago. It doesn't appear much has changed in that time regarding formations in CMO.

Harpoon III starts ~33:10, CMANO is immediately prior.

Just my two cents...

I used to love playing Harpoon in it's different iterations as many players have on this forum I'm sure, but the thing I grew to hate was the formation editor with the defined arcs. To my mind, it was those arcs that made things more difficult, and rigid, to make a good formation, and the formation editor within CMO releases a player from that rigidity. If you loved the old formation editor, then by all means keep playing and enjoying Harpoon, but don't try to make CMO into Harpoon.

[artao5]

Wow. I see I brought the jackasses out. Good grief. Grow up.

Sure, you can set reference points to be relative/absolute to a group or unit. But if you want to change the shape of that patrol zone you have to individually move each reference point. And the overlays of zones created with reference points gets rather confusing. And unless you want to deal with A LOT of reference points, you're stuck with simple polygons. If we could simply drag a zone as one unit that'd help a lot.
I find doing everything with individual reference points one by one to be exceedingly and needlessly tedious.
As to "putting some time into the game," is 60 hrs in the last week-and-a-half okay?
And did I say make it exactly like Harpoon? No. I agree that there's ... good potential in the C:MO formation editor. But as it is it feel very WIP and basic.

The hostility from you people tho. Wow. WTAF. Get over it. Don't like my ideas, fine. But no need to be total dicks about it. Good grief.

Incidentally, as to "never hearing anyone complain about the formation editor," just earlier today I was talking with someone else on the CMO Discord about how the formation editor needs work.

I don't know why the video doesn't work. I clicked the button to insert a youtube video. Ridiculing me for it is totally uncalled for. See my first line regarding that. ... I don't respond well to people acting in such a manner and tend to mirror it back. So just .... Don't.

[Parel803]

Good evening,

I was thinking if one could make the formation box (as patrol zone) with a special action. This is only in my brain but maybe, with the Lua stuff I leared along the way, you can make a special action with input boxes on unit, 2x bearings and 2x ranges around ZZ. So thay patrol there boxes. Downside might be that there not in the best position when a ASM is inbound ...
Just my thoughts, nothing more.

best regards GJ

[thewood1]

You could build something, but it would be so limited, you'd end up resorting to lua to fix it or just using rps anyway.

I use events and special actions all the time to switch formations around. I create phase lines for groups and associated support units to shift threat axis, actual formation, etc. I see this a lot. Old Harpoon players come in and basically want Harpoon. We see less of that as more unencumbered players play CMO. But those Harpoon players come in, play the game for a couple days, and are shocked its not Harpoon. There should be a therapy session for those players.

[Parel803]

sounds nice,
What you mean with phase lines (not my native language)?
Like other phase in the war or mission or something completely different?
regards GJ

[thewood1]

Just a line of rps set as a zone. when the ship enters the zone, it triggers an event that changes mission and formation.

[Parel803]

rgr, understood. thx
GJ

[Quark73]

There should be a therapy session for those players.

How about a delta video tutorial? Have seen something similar with Path of Exile for Diablo players. But I guess guys like me that played Harpoon in the nineties are a dying breed.

[thewood1]

Yeah, its not worth it for existing demographic. The average age of a former Harpoon player is getting close to dead.

[Parel803]

The average age of a former Harpoon player is getting close to dead.

I hope not

[ultradave]

Geez. I'm *only* 66, played miniatures Harpoon and all the iteration of PC Harpoon.

"I'm not dead yet!" Planning to stick around for many more years.

Dave

[BDukes]

Yeah, its not worth it for existing demographic. The average age of a former Harpoon player is getting close to dead.

Good lord. Age has nothing to do with this, and Harpoon was great in its day (I got my start there). Maybe drop both lines of thought as it is just loading troll magazines with something to gaslight about?

Mike

[BDukes]

Wow. I see I brought the jackasses out. Good grief. Grow up

Sure, you can set reference points to be relative/absolute to a group or unit. But if you want to change the shape of that patrol zone you have to individually move each reference point. And the overlays of zones created with reference points gets rather confusing. And unless you want to deal with A LOT of reference points, you're stuck with simple polygons. If we could simply drag a zone as one unit that'd help a lot.
I find doing everything with individual reference points one by one to be exceedingly and needlessly tedious.
As to "putting some time into the game," is 60 hrs in the last week-and-a-half okay?
And did I say make it exactly like Harpoon? No. I agree that there's ... good potential in the C:MO formation editor. But as it is it feel very WIP and basic.

The hostility from you people tho. Wow. WTAF. Get over it. Don't like my ideas, fine. But no need to be total dicks about it. Good grief.

You're trolling. I'd characterize the responses as dismissive, not hostile. They are dismissive because very few people have complained about the formation editor. So while there is always room for improvement, nothing is really emergently wrong

Incidentally, as to "never hearing anyone complain about the formation editor," just earlier today I was talking with someone else on the CMO Discord about how the formation editor needs work.

Wow really? If its Fartbox, KingJamesBricks, or BigMoobs I'll change my position entirely.

I don't know why the video doesn't work. I clicked the button to insert a youtube video. Ridiculing me for it is totally uncalled for. See my first line regarding that. ... I don't respond well to people acting in such a manner and tend to mirror it back. So just .... Don't.

If you watch the video, your attention is not on what's wrong with any game. This is not to poke fun. It's to point out that most people can reason out that something is likely wrong with the streamer or a poster.

Mike

[thewood1]

Age has everything to do with it. I'm 60 and cut my PC gaming teeth on 360 and other 80s developers. Anyone under 40 most likely has no experience with Harpoon except when old guys like us show up. Harpoon was good for what and when it was. Harpoon is barely clinging. Even Matrix gave up on it. Once a year or so I pop over to HH's Harpoon site just to make myself feel better. Its like a nursing home for old wargamers who can't move on.

My best friend owned an Oldmobile dealership until Olds finally was shut down by GM. His regional manager told him it was because the average age of a new Olds buyer was dead or close to it. At 60, I'm closer to dead than not. Its just a fact.

[BDukes]

Age has everything to do with it. I'm 60 and cut my PC gaming teeth on 360 and other 80s developers. Anyone under 40 most likely has no experience with Harpoon except when old guys like us show up. Harpoon was good for what and when it was. Harpoon is barely clinging. Even Matrix gave up on it. Once a year or so I pop over to HH's Harpoon site just to make myself feel better. Its like a nursing home for old wargamers who can't move on.

My best friend owned an Oldmobile dealership until Olds finally was shut down by GM. His regional manager told him it was because the average age of a new Olds buyer was dead or close to it. At 60, I'm closer to dead than not. Its just a fact.

Haha. It doesn't matter what age; death is always close. I am an expert on that for the wrong reason. I think the key is being aware but not thinking and saying it too much

I don't agree that age is the issue, but that is ok.

M

[artao5]

Rather than be dismissive and tell me to "go play Harpoon" or "play more CMO," people could explain what I'm misunderstanding about the formation editor in CMO and how to use it.
Is there a way to assign a zone to a formation station? Is there a way to move an entire zone at once? Is there a way to move multiple reference points at once? If there are these things, I cannot find them. I am in-progress reading the manual; referencing it as needed.
I have started using a single reference point in "Patrol" mode to indicate air/surf/subsurf threat vectors. And then keep it inactive until I actually have a threat vector, then manually assign units to that "threat vector mission," and activate the mission. Is that how I'm SUPPOSED to be using the tools?
Unless I'm totally missing something, I find the reference points system is clunky to use. Pretty flexible, sure. But could be smoother.
I'm not talking about making zones relative or absolute. I'm talking about moving zones around, and changing their shape, within the formation itself.
Pull the entire ASW/ASuW picket patrols back from 25nm to 10nm, all at once, and direct it a little north of the battlegroup/convoy heading. Or having a broad ASW patrol zone and getting sonar contact at a particular bearing, but it's got a bit of variance. So you narrow down the patrol zone to encompass only the bearing and estimated range at which there was detection.
Things like that.
As far as I can find, changing these things involves moving individual reference points. Not an ideal UX.

[Parel803]

I'm embriotic in the LUA but with the stuff I've learned before I think one could make patrol stations in a formation. Another option is the use of postion change via lua like wood suggests.
Not sure when but I'll see if I can make somthing that simulates the formation of a TG. Probably gonna need help but see how far I can get. Thinking Special action with input boxes for maybe each unit in the TG for bearings and distances. Or also with units select. Not sure it is gonna work but nice to see if it can. Maybe something similar for the ASW-dippers.
best regards GJ