Missiles with stupidly high BVR capability post patch

[SchDerGrosse]

I have made multiple threads on how the new (and supposedly realistic) missile dynamics have introduced a plethora of problems to the game.

Dont really want to repeat my previous arguments here as I seem to be the minority with regards to this matter.

What I would like to share with you however is another "gem", that I have just discovered while playing the otherwise excellent REDEMPTION steam workshop scenario.

Perpetrator:



Radar with 215 nm range lol:



And the star of the show:



Stats -> 162 nm range (!!!)



And the bread and butter of the whole topic, fuel capacity:




The above means that this missile (designed in 1994 !!!) on this platform (2016) pretty outperforms any NATO ordenance in the 2020-ies.

Let me copy what the purpose of this missile was directly from the game:

"The AA-13 ARROW (R-37M) is a very long range, air-to-air, active radar-guided missile. It is a high supersonic solid fuel rocket. The AA-13 is designed to attack large ISR and IW/EW platforms such as the E-3, E-8 JSTARS, RC-135V/W Rivet Joint, EC-130 Compass Call and EC-130 Commando Solo at long ranges. It uses inertial guidance with mid-course updates, and semi-active and active radar homing for the terminal phase. The AA-13 uses large midbody strakes for enhanced lift. In 1994 a trial round killed a target at 162 NMI, a record for a BVR missile.

Source: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR- ... ocId435093; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-37_(missile)"


So the task of this missile was to take down from afar big lumbering NATO aircraft and not snipe F-16s from 150+ nm. Which is exactly what happening in my game.

Note that the AIM 120D has 26 sec fuel (and 2023 version has 28) and rapidly lose speed after that. Making it ineffective against anything past 35 nm that is actively turns and burns to avoid it.

[thewood1]

The general consensus is that the R-37 is a significant issue for Ukraine's fighters. It far out ranges even F-16s equipped with AIM-120s. It was the driving force behind supplying F-16s to Ukraine. But it was admitted it won't solve the problem. Just the threat has kept Ukrainian fights away from the frontlines. One of the reports stated that Russia has prioritized production of the R-37 overall other missiles in the short-term because it has proven to be a great deterrent on parts the battlefield.

https://static.rusi.org/SR-Russian-Air- ... -final.pdf

There is still a lot of FUD around it. But the R-37 was a well known threat with specific carrying aircraft becoming more common, it only increases. I suspect its also very situation-dependent.

[kahta]

I'm not sure why this is an issue-

1) I'm not sure why the fact it came out in 1994 is a problem
2) Just because it was designed to hit large aircraft, it doesn't mean it can't be used in other roles. The same can be said about the AIM-54
3) As thewood1 already said, this missile did impact the use of F-16s by Ukraine because of its effectiveness.
4) What is objectionable about the range of the radar on a mig-31?

[thewood1]

A partial answer is look at the OP's wording. Not a best practice for influencing people. Everyone has an ax to grind somewhere in life.

[Blast33]

Quote:
The above means that this missile (designed in 1994 !!!) on this platform (2016) pretty outperforms any NATO ordenance in the 2020-ies

Internet says: Work on the missile appears to have restarted in late 2006.
Source: R-37, R-37M (AA-X-13) (Russian Federation), AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES - BEYOND VISUAL RANGE". janes.com. 12 January 2009. Archived from the original on 14 September 2008.
This is a timejump, where you can replace internal CPU's and other technical things you think is outdated.

I see AIM-120B is used by Ukrainian F-16s https://x.com/Justin_Br0nk/status/1820122603664613750 which is from 1994 (Wikipedia). So in contrary to your statement the AMRAAM variant is the older one. And is the ordenance in the 2020-ies.
Also compare the APG-66 radar with the radar of the MiG-31. It is in another league.
A little research can bring you much.

But comparing years is not everything. Remember a Israeli F-16I that was shot down by a Syrian SA-5 in 2018.

And yes, if you know in your F-16 cockpit that a R-37 is launched at you. You wont continue to fly in a straight line. And the missile would have a hard time.
But what or who is gonne tell you?
You tell me.

[thewood1]

I built two different scenarios using a Mig-31 with the AA-13. Its a simple contrived scenario with F-16s. One is with a Ukraine F-16 and 1994ish AIM-120B. The other is a modern US F-16 with and AIM-120D and AESA.

Scenario one is a no contest complete domination by the Mig/Arrow combination. The Mig gets first detection with its powerful radar and has a missile in the air 3/4 of the way to the F-16 before the Mig is detected by the F-16. This is a mid-90s missile on an early 2000s F-16 vs a modernized AA-13M and a relatively modern Mig-31BM. If anyone is surprised by this result, they should probably run through the tutorials again.

Scenario two also isn't a surprise and the wins go the other way. But its not a domination like scenario one. The F-16 wins about 3/4 of the time, but it takes multiple missiles on both sides when the WRA is set for max range. The F-16 usually detects the Mig radar relatively early, but the Mig gets a solid lock and launch first. The biggest difference from scenario one is that the F-16 detects the Arrow shortly after launch. The F-16 usually dodges the Arrow while launching an AIM-120 against the Mig. About half the time it requires multiple launches from the F-16 to kill the Mig. But not always. Again, not too surprising. Its a closer match than scenario one, but the AESA and the F-16s better RWR make the difference.

The short of it is that in a simple contrived situation, the early F-16 is not a match for the Mig-31BM/Arrow combination. The modern F-16 is more than a match for the Mig, but not perfect.

[maverick3320]

I can't speak to the Arrow, but the AIM-120A AMRAAM is completely broken. If you fire it at greater than 12nm away, enemy fighters just turn around and burner away. If you fire it at closer ranges, the missile climbs to 60,000 feet (even if the enemy is 3nm away and at 36k altitude) and then invariably loses lock.

[thewood1]

Ran six tests with a slightly modded set up of the above scenarios. F-16s use the B models that are almost the same as the A model with a slightly higher kill probability and the same body and engine. Fired each time at about 20 (edit) nm. Killed the Mig-31 every time. Ran another series of tests and the B model misses every time below 3 nm head on and in tail chases. (Subsequent tests were actually over 50% hits on tail chases.) The minimum range of the A/B models are 2 nm. So its pretty close to that range. at 4 nm, You get hits most of the time. The head on has issues because the minimum range happens so quickly. I'll try to test the A model later for completeness.

So I'm not sure "completely broken" fits. What is your definition of completely broken? Because it seems like the A/B models work fairly well to the box spec along most of its range. Maybe could use a tweak between 2-3 nm by having a direct fire mode vs a lofting mode, but I would not call that "completely broken".

Also, is your issue related to the OP's issue or are dragging some kind pet peeve into a conversation to just confuse things? If its a separate issue, why would you post here and not put some kind of save up?

It might also be worthwhile to read this section in the manual...

"9.2.9 DLZ AND WHY IT MATTERS"

[Dimitris]

I can't speak to the Arrow, but the AIM-120A AMRAAM is completely broken. If you fire it at greater than 12nm away, enemy fighters just turn around and burner away. If you fire it at closer ranges, the missile climbs to 60,000 feet (even if the enemy is 3nm away and at 36k altitude) and then invariably loses lock.

If you suspect you have found a bug, please follow the tech support guidelines: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=255656

They exist for a reason.

Thank you.

[Dimitris]

maverick3320 < This is how to do a proper (and actually useful) report on this: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=409666