AAR: Defense of the USSR part 5

[Vic]

I did extra research and bought Medium Tank II

[Vic]

I did some limited counterattacks near Talinn in the north and Kharkov in the south.

Furthermore i send a lot of infantry to the frontline. Especially to Leningrad and Moscow area. I really want to hold those two towns.

This is how the line looks around Leningrad:

[Vic]

And around Moscow:

[tweber]

German Turn 6

The Soviets have run out of room and must stand and fight. Casualties mount on both side. The chart below shows overall kill and loss levels for the Germans over the first 6 turns. German kill were very high to start, then declined during the chase, and are now rising. Unfortunately, losses are rising as well. The next few rounds will be a slug fest.

Note that the chart shows losses as points. A rifle is 1 point, a tank / plane / artillery is 20 points.

[tweber]

AG N nears Leningrad

[tweber]

AG Center approaches Moscow

[tweber]

AG S is at the gates of Kharkov

[tweber]

The Romanians have begun the assault on Sevastopol.

Note that the bubbles in the water are supply losses. The Russians cut the road from Odessa last turn so my supply was re-routed through the town of Perakop which also serves as a port. The Russia navy in the Black Sea intercept the naval supply and the numbers represent the loses in each hex. I sent a unit to the West to re-establish land supply.

[Arditi]

  Hold on Vic, hold on....![:)]  You must not let the Huns dominate the East![:)]
             Arditi

[Ola Berli]

Vic,
 
looks like decision time. Hold Moscow....beware of outflanking. Soon the  russian winter will slow down the
fascist invaders. You also have the Sibirean reinforcements in the pipeline.
Just a note: Historical a german motorized patrol from the german 62nd Panzer Pioneer Batallion around dawn
1 dec. 1941 reached the village Khimki. The distance from Khimki train station to the Kremlin was 19 km! This
was the closest the german got. After a short break the germans retreated back to where they come from.

[seille]

@Ola Berli
The winter and the reenforcements won´t help if Vic don´t have a
army ready to fight. Actually his army is in a very bad situation. He can´t replace his losses
and is under heavy pressure from german attacks. If he loses more terrain before winter comes
i see absolutely no chance he can turn the situation.
What could help is the winter weather, the siberain reenforcements (very powerful and a match to the germans)
and most important the lend Lease help from the western allies which start on turn 9 or 10 if i remember right.
 
Victor lost already too much terrain. I think he won´t keep Leningrad. Moscow he´ll lose in the next turns or in early 1942.
I wish him all the best with his russians. I know too good how difficult it is to stop Tom here [:D]

[Ola Berli]

seille,
 
I have been there myself in most formats so I fully understand.
 
Yet at the moment we wait and see what impact the russian weather and russian reinforcement will have.
 
Maybe tear and wear on the german Supermen will also do its work....?

[goodwoodrw]

Please again the numbers, what do they represent squads battallions, or define by the scenario maker. Can someone explain the unit stats numbers % etc

[tweber]

The numbers in the unit represent the effective strength of the unit.  It is a function of what is inside (a counter can hold different sub-types like light and medium tanks, rifle, MGs, bazooka, artillery, infantry guns, etc...) and the state of a unit (e.g., the number goes down after it is shelled).  If you look at the unit in Sevastopol in the bottom picture, it's number is four.  That is because it was struck with 2 artillery units, attacked from multiple sides, and then retreated.  It is in bad shape.  The unit next to it is at strength 104.  It was not touched last turn.
 
The make-up of the units is set by the scenario designer.  A unit could have 25 rilfe, 1 light tank, and 1 truck.  This would mean different things if the scenario was theater wide vs a single battle.  In the Russia scenario, the Germans start with about 1500 infantry of different types.  In the real war, they had 3 million men in the invasion.  This would give a ratio of roughly 1:2000. 

[goodwoodrw]

So the figures are very abstract? there must be a relationship between 25 infantry and 2 medium tanks to get a correct firepower ratio, I guess my question is how is this determined?

[TPM]

ORIGINAL: BASB

So the figures are very abstract? there must be a relationship between 25 infantry and 2 medium tanks to get a correct firepower ratio, I guess my question is how is this determined?

I asked the same question in another thread...I'd love to know what that relationship is, or at least how the designers approach it. Let's take what tweber wrote above, that ratio for infantry in the Russian scenario is somewhere around 1:2000...this gives you a basis for building a corps, divsion, whatever. But what about the tanks? What is one tank equal to?
For me, it's not knowing any exact numbers, but I would love to know how they approach this to give me some insight when I create my own scenarios. I'd like to know if I know the historical numbers in a given regiment, # infantry and # tanks, how can I relate that to the game...
Probably much too complicated to answer, and maybe more a matter of trial and error...

[tweber]

For tanks in general, there are ratios of historic tank classes available.  Wikipedia, for one, publishes how many T-34's the Soviets produced each year.  So, you can set the ratio of German to Soviet tanks that way.  In terms of mix between infantry and armor, there are also sources on actual Soviet and German order's of battle.  This is helpful, but not perfectly so, since the order's of battle represent paper strength.   

The trick becomes how to model the actual units.  Should a tank corps get 2, 5, or 10 tanks?  What about infantry?  What about mechanized infantry?  Here it is trial and error based on the way the units are defined.  In this scenario, the infantry units have 40-60 infantry and the armored nits have 2-5 tanks.  I have found that works out well.

Off course, you can design your own unit types and then come up with different ratios, but it is much quicker if you play around with the pre-defined unit types (there are about 100 if you include all the research levels) and come up with ratios that you are comfortable with. 

Actually, setting up the unit levels is also linked closely with setting up the production.  If you want both sides play with about 1500 infantry, 50 artillery, 100 planes, and 50 tanks across their corps, you have to have enough production for replacement (based on likely loses) and for supply.  In the Russia scenario after the 2 turns, you will see about a 10-20% attrition each turn.  In the current game I am playing with Vic, the German side must spend about 40% off it's production on supply.  Given a 10-20% monthly attrition and it's current production capacity, it's order of battle is pretty much maxed out. 

[goodwoodrw]

ORIGINAL: tweber

For tanks in general, there are ratios of historic tank classes available.  Wikipedia, for one, publishes how many T-34's the Soviets produced each year.  So, you can set the ratio of German to Soviet tanks that way.  In terms of mix between infantry and armor, there are also sources on actual Soviet and German order's of battle.  This is helpful, but not perfectly so, since the order's of battle represent paper strength.   

The trick becomes how to model the actual units.  Should a tank corps get 2, 5, or 10 tanks?  What about infantry?  What about mechanized infantry?  Here it is trial and error based on the way the units are defined.  In this scenario, the infantry units have 40-60 infantry and the armored nits have 2-5 tanks.  I have found that works out well.

Off course, you can design your own unit types and then come up with different ratios, but it is much quicker if you play around with the pre-defined unit types (there are about 100 if you include all the research levels) and come up with ratios that you are comfortable with. 

Actually, setting up the unit levels is also linked closely with setting up the production.  If you want both sides play with about 1500 infantry, 50 artillery, 100 planes, and 50 tanks across their corps, you have to have enough production for replacement (based on likely loses) and for supply.  In the Russia scenario after the 2 turns, you will see about a 10-20% attrition each turn.  In the current game I am playing with Vic, the German side must spend about 40% off it's production on supply.  Given a 10-20% monthly attrition and it's current production capacity, it's order of battle is pretty much maxed out. 

Hmm I'm not so sure if this game is looking favourable as first looked, with that last explanation, everything has suddenly become very genetic. What your saying in essence is that each icon on the map is a generic representation of any type of formation a player wants, which is governed by what resources the player may have. Theoretically you could have one unit as big as your resources allow you, or hundreds of little ones. Loses don't amount to indivual men or vehicles. companies, brigades or divisions, but resource losses.

[Vic]

@BASB,

Actually in real life a division or a corps is a placeholder unit which according to how it is filled up with troops and equipment becomes a Static Division, Infantry Division, Armoured Division, PzGrenadier Division, etc... The AT system just gives you the flexibility to determain the equipment and troop mixes in your units.

I think it is a great gameplay feature and allows for players to use unique strategies.

Kind regards,
Vic

[goodwoodrw]

Yes I agree in what your saying, taskforces are exactly that, most military forces today are brick systems adding elements to force depending the task at hand. All that being said, there needs to be a handle on different elements of a force to put them into the right perspective. such as firepower defence etc.