Some discussion of 1.0.5

[Bartje]

Bwahahahahaha!      [;)]



Extermination should be an option yep but it shouldn't be mandatory. Sometimes genocide just feels wrong, that's what people are saying.

I say accomodate them. Genocide shouldn't be mandatory; some times draconian measures are cost effective other times suede gloves accomplish more.

Honey & fire.

[taltamir]

A solution to this would be the ability to release subjugated tributaries or vassals of said races including their planets. This way they should count towards your victory requirements as well as supplying you with taxes, resources and trade. (perhaps inventions too?)

Would such a solution solve these feelings?

While it would absolve the genocide, it would result in something even worse... the inability to conquer large swaths of the galaxy, which are integral to a 4x game.
I'd rather annihilate all the aliens with my nuclear wrath then let them go "free" and "independent"... besides, it would not work mechanically, you spend all this effort conquering a planet, only to have to release it to be independent, then as an ind. it either becomes its own empire, or is absorbed by another empire almost immediately, you are just shuffling planets from one enemy to another without keeping them yourself.

I'll be "releasing" my subjects over their hot dead vaporized bodies!

First, exterminate in 4X does not mean genocide, it mean exterminate enemy empires... typically via CONQUEST.

Second, my argument isn't that you shouldn't be able to nuke all the aliens to sludge... my argument is that the notion to penalize you for having aliens in your empire means you are forcing me to choose between nuking them all to death or not conquering them at all and leaving them free. both are unacceptable.
I want the option to nuke without the game ruining me (currently it would), and I want the option to conquer without the game ruining me (currently there is no penalty for it, the suggestion I argue against is to penalize you for multi-species empire means it will)... its not that difficult and its completely standard 4X fare. you can nuke or you can conquer.

[gargoil]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I want the option to nuke without the game ruining me (currently it would),

This is a tough thing to balance. Are enough of your citizens bloodthristy and xenophobic enough to support large scale....ah, I got to say it again, genocide? Perhaps they are, and if that is want some players want, so be it. I actually want it to be difficult to be so. And if I want to go down that path, I will need to deal with the difficulties it brings. Hey, how about for evil goverment types some secret police agents added to the intelligents screen for, ahem, dealing with disidents?

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I want the option to conquer without the game ruining me (currently there is no penalty for it, the suggestion I argue against is to penalize you for multi-species empire means it will)... its not that difficult and its completely standard 4X fare. you can nuke or you can conquer.

Agreed, right now, game is Working as Intended.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I want the option to nuke without the game ruining me (currently it would),

This is a tough thing to balance. Are enough of your citizens bloodthristy and xenophobic enough to support large scale....ah, I got to say it again, genocide? Perhaps they are, and if that is want some players want, so be it. I actually want it to be difficult to be so. And if I want to go down that path, I will need to deal with the difficulties it brings. Hey, how about for evil goverment types some secret police agents added to the intelligents screen for, ahem, dealing with disidents?

they don't need to, they just need to be scared enough of my secret police. Also, we aren't talking death camps here, we are talking nuking enemy planets.

the current results of nuking is:
1. EVERYONE declares war on you.
2. Your empire splits in half in a civil war. (the other half becoming an AI empire with half your army, half your planets, half your wealth, and all your tech and maps).

Of course this should somewhat depend on your government... a totalitarian government should have an easier time doing it than a democracy.
Also, while I see democracies, republics, and maybe even monarchies declaring war on me for nuking someone else (pretty suicidal of them but meh)... having the dictatorships of the universe care that I am doing it seems more then a bit odd...

Although, personally I would not take the nuking option... this is more of a "should work" thing that I personally DON'T like to use, ever. I prefer to conquer them all then to nuke them dead. But I accept the argument some have made that it should be at least doable under certain conditions.

My main modus operandi is to conquer them all... which, as you and I agree, works as it should/intended. and should not be broken because some feel that conquering should penalize you.

[gargoil]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I want the option to nuke without the game ruining me (currently it would),

This is a tough thing to balance. Are enough of your citizens bloodthristy and xenophobic enough to support large scale....ah, I got to say it again, genocide? Perhaps they are, and if that is want some players want, so be it. I actually want it to be difficult to be so. And if I want to go down that path, I will need to deal with the difficulties it brings. Hey, how about for evil goverment types some secret police agents added to the intelligents screen for, ahem, dealing with disidents?

they don't need to, they just need to be scared enough of my secret police. Also, we aren't talking death camps here, we are talking nuking enemy planets.

the current results of nuking is:
1. EVERYONE declares war on you.
2. Your empire splits in half in a civil war. (the other half becoming an AI empire with half your army, half your planets, half your wealth, and all your tech and maps).

Of course this should somewhat depend on your government... a totalitarian government should have an easier time doing it than a democracy.
Also, while I see democracies, republics, and maybe even monarchies declaring war on me for nuking someone else (pretty suicidal of them but meh)... having the dictatorships of the universe care that I am doing it seems more then a bit odd...

Although, personally I would not take the nuking option... this is more of a "should work" thing that I personally DON'T like to use, ever. I prefer to conquer them all then to nuke them dead. But I accept the argument some have made that it should be at least doable under certain conditions.

My main modus operandi is to conquer them all... which, as you and I agree, works as it should/intended. and should not be broken because some feel that conquering should penalize you.

I have to say I see what your saying and agree. I have not finished enough games (I start a lot, but I find the early/mid game the be more fun, so I don't finish many) to have seen exactly what happens if you do a lot of nuking. I play sandbox mode, and I kinda stop playing when I own more then half the galaxy and all the other empires combined are not as strong me in any comparative category. I guess I should turn on the % Territory Victory Conditions, but I like determining it for myself, because there still may be a strong opponent out there. When I know I can't be stopped is when I stop [8D].

Back to your point - is it really impossible to do some nuking, within reason? Has anybody other there been able to keep there empire together while doing some limited nuking?

I am against anybody being able to do wholesale nuking without having major problems, except maybe hivemind.

[taltamir]

the USA nuked japan...
there was no civil war and nobody declared war on it as a result

j/k, I know you are asking about doing it in the game. Personally I don't nuke... I am repeating the accounts of several other forum members who say that the nuclear option makes everyone go to war with them and starts a civil war... I guess i could experiment with it some later on.

[cmdrnarrain]

BS
[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]Wholesale nuking and planet destruction should always be an option. They are in the game but right now you can not do it because each time that you do it your empire will keep splitting in half until you stop. Which is crapola. [/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]If you don't want people to do it, don't put them in the game. Right now it sucks big time because I want to play with those toys but can't and everyone hates a tease.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font="times new roman"]Sheez[/font], you can already conquer them. Why are you trying to ruin everyone's else fun with this stuff? It seems silly to me or some moral high horse? Like I said, save the PC mumble jumbo for the non-war game sites because DW is a war game. [/font]

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

BS
[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]Wholesale nuking and planet destruction should always be an option. They are in the game but right now you can not do it because each time that you do it your empire will keep splitting in half until you stop. Which is crapola. [/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]If you don't want people to do it, don't put them in the game. Right now it sucks big time because I want to play with those toys but can't and everyone hates a tease.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font="times new roman"]Sheez[/font], you can already conquer them. Why are you trying to ruin everyone's else fun with this stuff? It seems silly to me or some moral high horse? Like I said, save the PC mumble jumbo for the non-war game sites because DW is a war game. [/font]

who are you talking to?

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Basic math shows that your suggestion would make them weaker compared to how they are right now. Your suggestion is a NERF, to claim otherwise is insanity... math is very clear here, currently you have a certain power level, you suggest to REDUCE said power level.
And btw, they are already too weak compared to how they were in v1.00 of the game

Yes, the percentage-based multiracial bonus actually kinda sucks now. You're pretty much going to get nothing out of a new race other than dilution. In fact, their existence in your empire hurts you, because it increases the wall you need to push with your "real" races in order to actually get anything useful. Plus I dispute the notion that you need half your entire population to consist of a race to derive the benefits of them, or that some of those benefits can even be transferrable.

For instance, Boskaras have a -80% war weariness bonus, but there's no particularly logical reason why this should somehow manage to affect, say, your Securan population. It would make more sense if ANY Boskara colony you had received -80% war weariness, regardless of their population composition, but not anyone else, while Securan colonies were +50% happy, but this had no effect on anyone else, as these seem to be intrinsic racial features that cannot be exported into specialists. Features like "Optimist", "Rivalry", and "Warrior Caste" would work this way: They apply to the relevant units of that race, immediately, at 100% strength...and only that race.

Conversely, something like the +40% Quameno research bonus, you only would need enough Quamenos to fill out your research specialists. This would likely be a fixed quantity like before, rather than a huge percentage of your empire: 50% of the population of a nation is not engaged in research: Only a small fraction of people engage in scientific research, and it should be enough that those people are your best researchers. Racial features involving specialists would work like this: Spies, Researchers, Mining Base Miners, Merchants, Starship Engineers, etc.

As it stands now, it is not possible to simultaneously employ Gizurean Engineers, Quameno Researchers, and Ketarov Spymasters in your empire without destroying the point of doing any of this. This in turn hurts the AI: A human can manipulate colonization efforts to make sure the right bonuses get installed, the AI isn't smart enough to figure this out.

While the oldsystem of only needing 2B was probably too generous, the new system is too harsh and punishing. And the more punishing the system becomes, the easier it is for the human to gain an advantage over the AI, as humans are far better at avoiding punishments than AIs are.

[AndonSage]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Yes, the percentage-based multiracial bonus actually kinda sucks now. <snipped remainder for brevity>

Although I haven't purchased DW yet, I've been reading the forum in preparation, including this thread, and I have to say that your post makes the most sense I've read in this thread. (and this forum needs a :thumbsup smiley )

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Yes, the percentage-based multiracial bonus actually kinda sucks now. You're pretty much going to get nothing out of a new race other than dilution. In fact, their existence in your empire hurts you, because it increases the wall you need to push with your "real" races in order to actually get anything useful. Plus I dispute the notion that you need half your entire population to consist of a race to derive the benefits of them, or that some of those benefits can even be transferrable.

*snip*

Agreed... people complained and complained that its not realistic, too beneficial, too good for human players since they can better acquire more diverse racial proportions then AI ones, etc.
and the result was the nerfing of racial bonuses to the state you now describe. (another thing that was suggested by people for balance is corruption.. an arbitrary penalty to larger empires MOO3 style to make the game "more challenging" in late game because human players inevitably become the largest, and need a handicap to keep the game "fun" aka "challenging" at the mop up/steamroll stage)...

balance is not inherently good or inherently bad. Sometimes it is called for, often times it is not. And there are often very serious and damaging unintended consequences for ideas that seem good at the time.
That being said, its not that critical... i just ignore racial bonuses right now and focus on other issues. it isn't a deal breaker but it is annoying.

[Bartje]

I agree with Fishman!

That does make the most sense.

Bonuses should be tied to population at 100% effectiveness but just for that pop in the colony.

Perhaps a multiple race colony could then only get the bonus of the majority of its same race inhabitants.

That makes sense!

---

I would still like to see a strategic choice concerning colonizing however. Will you use foreign races because they will develop certain planets more quickly or will you stick with the more loyal original race.

Colony tech needs to be cheaper and those racial bonuses should be tied to pop not to the entire empire.


Does everyone like this?

[Dadekster]

I have a lot of thoughts after reading this 4 pager but after what Fishman posted this was the first thing that popped into my head. Yeah, yeah shut up I know that's an open invitation for being mocked.

Anywho, what I was thinking was that maybe on the colony page there could be a box that allows us what races could migrate to the planet? Just a box with all races listed in the current game or that you have found and you just check the box of who you would allow to settle there. This way you can manipulate what a planet can do via its residents and their inherent bonuses. Want a colony dedicated to research and being happy, well make sure you send the correct colony ship there and then only allow braindead happy aliens (I'm a pessimist so sue me[;)]) to settle there. If it is conquered by either you or the AI once they make their selection of who they want to live there the passenger ships can offload the races as well...but I'd throw in some unhappiness about it. Being forcable evicted probably would make for bad feelings. So now as the leader of your empire you have some interesting choices in that regard as well with your subjects.

Would this be a simple elegant solution or not?

ps- at least it gives all those passenger ships something to do besides randomly fly around taking who knows who to where. [:'(]

[Munchies]

I have been away for a while(Havnt even DL the new versions), but I agree that the colonization at the beginning needs fixing.

I remember not long ago I started a new game and within a year (VERY early in the game) I had over 50 volcanic planets I could colonize just because I found a colony ship of insects.


Colony ships need to pull population from the colony they are built at instead of pulling them from thin air. Would put a big damper on colonizing quickly.

Also perhaps pull 20 million from a planet for every colony ship built and when it colonizes, half of them are lost. Or anything really.
It just badly need tweeking.

btw, I quit playing that game, because I pulled so far ahead it because boring.

[the1sean]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

I don't really see this as a problem: It is by NO means a condition unique to you, the player. This is roughly the equivalent in Dominions of finding a particularly tasty independent province capable of making mages in the magics your nation lacks. Very nice, and significantly affects your gameplan, but at the same time, it is not a condition that is unique to a specific player, and can't even really be considered rare.

Agreed, plus the fact that if that species isnt very numerous, having their one planet build tons of colony ships will take an eternity...

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: the1sean

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

I don't really see this as a problem: It is by NO means a condition unique to you, the player. This is roughly the equivalent in Dominions of finding a particularly tasty independent province capable of making mages in the magics your nation lacks. Very nice, and significantly affects your gameplan, but at the same time, it is not a condition that is unique to a specific player, and can't even really be considered rare.

Agreed, plus the fact that if that species isnt very numerous, having their one planet build tons of colony ships will take an eternity...

Very true, I find it ineffective to just conquer ONE planet of a species capable of colonizing a unique new terrain... i conquer a whole bunch of their planets to do so effectively. (so I could build colony ships in parallel)...

And indeed it is not at the least bit unique to yourself, the AI empires are all mixed as well.

the only real "problem" with it is that is makes colonization tech fairly useless... but that is not a critical issue. and we already suggested many modifications to said colony ships.

[Kruos]

ORIGINAL: the1sean

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

I don't really see this as a problem: It is by NO means a condition unique to you, the player. This is roughly the equivalent in Dominions of finding a particularly tasty independent province capable of making mages in the magics your nation lacks. Very nice, and significantly affects your gameplan, but at the same time, it is not a condition that is unique to a specific player, and can't even really be considered rare.

Agreed, plus the fact that if that species isnt very numerous, having their one planet build tons of colony ships will take an eternity...

Not agreed : as already explained by some people here, the problem is that colonization tech are pretty useless for the moment.

Some very good suggestions to solved this have been made here, I hope the dev will take a look at it.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Kruos

ORIGINAL: the1sean

ORIGINAL: Fishman

I don't really see this as a problem: It is by NO means a condition unique to you, the player. This is roughly the equivalent in Dominions of finding a particularly tasty independent province capable of making mages in the magics your nation lacks. Very nice, and significantly affects your gameplan, but at the same time, it is not a condition that is unique to a specific player, and can't even really be considered rare.

Agreed, plus the fact that if that species isnt very numerous, having their one planet build tons of colony ships will take an eternity...

Not agreed : as already explained by some people here, the problem is that colonization tech are pretty useless for the moment.

Some very good suggestions to solved this have been made here, I hope the dev will take a look at it.

different people are seeing / addressing different problems in the same thread
As they currently stand, colonization techs 2 and 3 (you start with tech 1) are not very useful, since its much easier and more practical to get races that can colonize more planets. We did mention a variety of alterations that would make said tech more useful. However, I wouldn't really call it a "problem"... so there are 2 techs with very limited use but no penalties at all for using them... its not like the case with lasers vs torpedoes where the AI loses out by using lasers... there is no reason for you to not use said tech, you just gain little from it (unless your situation is specific... for example, a civilization that started with high tech levels, or if you play with fast research rate...)
Also, colonization tech 4 is ridiculously awesome but not very reasonable (create more colonists out of thin air), suggestions have been made to change that as well.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: Kruos

ORIGINAL: the1sean



Agreed, plus the fact that if that species isnt very numerous, having their one planet build tons of colony ships will take an eternity...

Not agreed : as already explained by some people here, the problem is that colonization tech are pretty useless for the moment.

Some very good suggestions to solved this have been made here, I hope the dev will take a look at it.

different people are seeing / addressing different problems in the same thread
As they currently stand, colonization techs 2 and 3 (you start with tech 1) are not very useful, since its much easier and more practical to get races that can colonize more planets. We did mention a variety of alterations that would make said tech more useful. However, I wouldn't really call it a "problem"... so there are 2 techs with very limited use but no penalties at all for using them... its not like the case with lasers vs torpedoes where the AI loses out by using lasers... there is no reason for you to not use said tech, you just gain little from it (unless your situation is specific... for example, a civilization that started with high tech levels, or if you play with fast research rate...)
Also, colonization tech 4 is ridiculously awesome but not very reasonable (create more colonists out of thin air), suggestions have been made to change that as well.

One thing I do agree with is that colonists should not appear out of thin air. If you are building a colony ship from a world with only 10-15 million colonists, one has to think they are cloning themselves to fill up a colony ship.

There are two possible solutions:

1. Require the ship to be loaded with existing population once complete...this removes X number of colonists from the existing planet.
2. Only allow colony ships to be built at planets with at least X (my suggestion is 100 million) colonists.

Either solution fixes the problem. If you find a derelict colony ship, you only get the number of colonists of that species that your current colony tech allows. With either of the above solutions, you simply can't spread Species 'Y' to every corner of the galaxy, there aren't enough of them to do it.

[taltamir]

the problem with cloning is that they don't do it on planets, only on ships... so a 15 million colony would clone 50 million colonists for a ship, but will not clone said amount on the planet to rapidly reach max pop.

Ideally colony ships would be loaded when they are ordered to colonize a planet. Aka, a newly build colony ship is empty, ordering to to colonize a planet will have it pick up X population from nearest planet that can live in target planet (but will require leaving a certain minimum population amount on pickup planet) and then travel to target colonization planet. (don't remove the population as soon as a colony ship starts building, they can be destroyed easily when unfinished).