Some discussion of 1.0.5

[Erik Rutins]

Hi everyone,

While we finish up the second 1.0.4 update, we've started work on 1.0.5. 1.0.5 will be a pretty major update in several respects. One thing it should do is to significantly improve save/load speed and save size, which will mean that it will unfortunately not work with older saves, unlike the updates we've released to date. 1.0.5 will also rebalance weapons and other components to some degree.

We've also discussed fleet "behaviors" for some time as a real solution to the various differences in player opinion on how ships and fleets should behave. The current plan is to implement the following in 1.0.5:


We'll be adding a feature called stance for each ship and fleet. Stance will control how ships auto-engage enemy targets. The stance will be one of the following values:

* Engage when attacked
* Engage nearby targets (within approx 2000 screen pixels)
* Engage targets in the same system

There'll also be some handy shortcuts for this so that you can have default stances for mission types, so that when you assign ships or fleets a mission they'll switch to your preferred stance, e.g. patrol missions might default to "Engage targets in same system", whereas escort missions might default to "Engage nearby targets". These defaults will be set for your empire in the game options screen.

We'll also expose the "overkill" value in the game options screen. This value determines how many ships are assigned to handle an enemy target, so that only the necessary attack strength is assigned to each target (instead of all ships rushing off to the nearest target). This value is currently hardcoded to 2, but we'll allow players to set this value themselves.

For auto-refuel we'll be making some exceptions so that some mission types do not auto-refuel, e.g. invading a colony (drop troops) or colonizing.

We'll share more news on 1.0.5 as we get closer. We expect the second 1.0.4 update to possibly go official this week and the first 1.0.5 Public Beta should show up by mid-June.

Regards,

- Erik

[VarekRaith]

[cmdrnarrain]

Looks great, but specifics would look even better.

[taltamir]

pretty neat.
In regards to auto-refuel. by "mission type" do you mean "type of ship" or "orders given"?
because by default troopships have weapons, and cruisers, capital ships, and destroyers all come with troop pods. If your troopship gets in a shootout with someone and they run out of fuel (thus, their weapons no longer work), then they should break off to refuel. likewise, if you order a capital ship low on fuel to drop its troops on a planet via invade it should also do so. So it would be best if it is based on command rather then ship type.
Likewise, a colony ship used in exploration or even just sitting idle would benefit from auto-refuel.

So I think auto-refuel should simply not cancel an existing order to colonize a planet, or an existing order to invade a planet with troops. rather then completely exclude specific ship types. (and order to attack though is fine to cancel to auto-refuel, because weapons don't actually work without fuel; likewise with an order to move to a location thanks to it resuming the last order given when done refueling)

[Arnir]

I might have missed it, but will fleets start moving as a group and arriving as a group?

[Bartje]

Great to hear about the improved save & loading!
 
Can't wait![:)]

[jscott991]

Corruption slider?

Mass troop loading command?

These things look very minor to me, but maybe that's a sign of the game finally getting over the major issue hump.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: jscott991
Corruption slider?
Mass troop loading command?

Yes, I've already mentioned that those are planned for 1.0.5.

[Dadekster]

Very nice to see these extra layers of control being granted. As long as you can make the macro players happy by allowing them the option of not having to deal with making decisions I say this is win win. That's assuming it works as intended, but that's what the beta is for [;)]

I also enjoy watching the tightrope act you guys are having to perform regarding 'player opinions' ...not envious of that at all am I. [:'(]

[nammafia]

Thank you for your continuing support of this game.

The default stance for escort missions should be "Engage when Attacked" because the ships might start chasing pirates when the default stance is "Engage nearby targets". I understand that you have not finalized anything yet but I just want to put my two cents in.

[Joram]

ORIGINAL: Arnir

I might have missed it, but will fleets start moving as a group and arriving as a group?

Agreed, this is a big oversight to omit this. I find fleets tedious to manage for this reason and more often than not, I simply use the ctrl keys on a group of ships since being in a fleet adds almost zero value.

Also, it doesn't look like the root issue of the AI overriding manual commands is addressed. Having 'stances' is only a partial solution especially since you don't have a 'Do Not Engage' option with the intent that the unit will only engage if ordered manually. But ideally, any manual command will override any AI command. I don't mind the AI taking a first guess at the intended action based on these settings but I want to be able to override it.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: nammafia

Thank you for your continuing support of this game.

The default stance for escort missions should be "Engage when Attacked" because the ships might start chasing pirates when the default stance is "Engage nearby targets". I understand that you have not finalized anything yet but I just want to put my two cents in.

isn't that a total waste of an escort ship? your private sector has 10 freighters per planet in your empire (based on my observations)... that means my 700 planet (and moons) empire has 7000 freighters.
If you are in system A, and there is a pirate there attacking freighters, an escort should fight it. Why would the escort ignore the pirate in the same system just because it has been randomly assigned to guard freighter #5078 when the system currently has fifty freighters in it being slaughtered one by one?

Escorts should travel alongside freighters as they do their rounds, but when a pirate or a space monster is eating your ships and bases they should converge to kill it and then return to their patrols, rather then ignore the threat and just fly around in circles doing absolutely nothing.

[RViener]

Erik, I would appreciate a more complete list of planned improvments for 1.05 so I and otheres know what to expect.
Thanks in advance.

[deanco2]

This sounds like just what the doctor ordered re automation.

If I can make a suggestion: To my way of thinking, you only need 2 stances: Engage when attacked, and engage targets in same system.  It seems that Engage when attacked would have basically the same effect as Engage within 2000 pixels or whatever.  I remember one user who sent a lone ship to the other side of a pirate base and complained (rightly, I think) that the ship crossed the system and attacked the base.  'Engage if attacked' would probably stop that ship from attacking.  The 2000 pixel thing sounds like the default behavior for ships on automate, and if I want that to happen, I can just put them on auto.  Honestly, I can't think of a use for that 2000 pixel command, although others might.

On the other hand, a command like 'you are authorized to move 1 system in any direction to attack, then return to your home base when battle ends', this, I can imagine a use for.

[nammafia]

I was thinking about manual control. If I want a ship to escort a freighter, I don't want the ship to engage any nearby non-threatening targets en route to destination. If ships are on automation mode then by all mean they should engage nearby target. Any, Erik mentions stance are options so I can choose whatever I like. Good stuffs.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: nammafia

I was thinking about manual control. If I want a ship to escort a freighter, I don't want the ship to engage any nearby non-threatening targets en route to destination. If ships are on automation mode then by all mean they should engage nearby target. Any, Erik mentions stance are options so I can choose whatever I like. Good stuffs.

I understood that part, my point is, you have thousands of freighters... dozens to hundreds in that system alone...
There is no such thing as a "non-threatening" target... it might not attack that one freighter its currently guarding, but it will slaughter freighter after freighter. You are basically saying you want your escorts to ignore hostiles and drive around in circles doing absolutely nothing but burn fuel and cost money. I am asking you WHY do you want that, what possible reason would you want them to drive around in circles doing nothing instead of killing the pirate who is slaughtering your freighters in that system, just because it is assigned to freighter #5762 and the pirate has so far only killed freighters 5222, 1276, 1485 and 5822 which do not have an escort assigned to them.
Now, I could see not engaging more powerful targets that would kill them, and not engaging targets in systems that do not belong to you... I guess you could say that if they don't attack any ship you own then they should be ignored. like a space monster sitting still at an unpopulated planet and NOT attacking any of your ships. Is that what you meant?

[jscott991]

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

For example, if I'm playing as humans, I can only colonize continental planets. This severely limits the number of colonies I can establish and makes the game challenging (in a good way) by giving me a typical growth curve (small empire, gradually becoming medium, then large).

However, if I find a planet of Securans, all bets are off. I can now colonize desert planets. If I find a population of humans on a march planet, I can now colonize marshy planets. I've doubled and tripled my colony totals in an instant.

This is too night and day. I find Securans or marsh dwellers or whatever early in every game. Once this explosion of colony choices happens, you can leave the AI in the dust in terms of planet count within a few years.

There needs to be some limit on the ability to build colony ships at alien-populated worlds that confer the equivalent benefit to an advanced colonization module.

Frankly, it should be as simple as not allowing me to found colonies with these new races until I can build colony ships capable of landing on desert planets or marshes or whatever. Getting that technology cheaply by finding another race kind of spoils the early game.

[Spacecadet]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

For example, if I'm playing as humans, I can only colonize continental planets. This severely limits the number of colonies I can establish and makes the game challenging (in a good way) by giving me a typical growth curve (small empire, gradually becoming medium, then large).

However, if I find a planet of Securans, all bets are off. I can now colonize desert planets. If I find a population of humans on a march planet, I can now colonize marshy planets. I've doubled and tripled my colony totals in an instant.

This is too night and day. I find Securans or marsh dwellers or whatever early in every game. Once this explosion of colony choices happens, you can leave the AI in the dust in terms of planet count within a few years.

There needs to be some limit on the ability to build colony ships at alien-populated worlds that confer the equivalent benefit to an advanced colonization module.

Frankly, it should be as simple as not allowing me to found colonies with these new races until I can build colony ships capable of landing on desert planets or marshes or whatever. Getting that technology cheaply by finding another race kind of spoils the early game.

What about the Dhayut, and maybe even another Race or so?

They can colonize multiple Planet types right off the bat.
And there are still quite a few Ocean Planets for those that can colonize them.

[Kruos]

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

For example, if I'm playing as humans, I can only colonize continental planets. This severely limits the number of colonies I can establish and makes the game challenging (in a good way) by giving me a typical growth curve (small empire, gradually becoming medium, then large).

However, if I find a planet of Securans, all bets are off. I can now colonize desert planets. If I find a population of humans on a march planet, I can now colonize marshy planets. I've doubled and tripled my colony totals in an instant.

This is too night and day. I find Securans or marsh dwellers or whatever early in every game. Once this explosion of colony choices happens, you can leave the AI in the dust in terms of planet count within a few years.

There needs to be some limit on the ability to build colony ships at alien-populated worlds that confer the equivalent benefit to an advanced colonization module.

Frankly, it should be as simple as not allowing me to found colonies with these new races until I can build colony ships capable of landing on desert planets or marshes or whatever. Getting that technology cheaply by finding another race kind of spoils the early game.

Full agree with that.

And I also add that even if you play at normal research rate, the advantage to have news races in your empire is so huge that colonization tech are pretty useless in fact.

Like jscott I think that the simplest thing to do is to not give the 'colonization ability' when a new race imigrate. Maybe also in the same time slighty tweak the tech value of colonization tech (I think to a reduction of its value, but this need some tests).

And isn't it more realistic in fact? I mean, these news people are immigrants, so if they come to you or accept your colonization, it is that they like your style of living, and adapt themselves to your culture and learn to live by your ways, progressively forgeting their original style of living... some call it "assimilation".

[tkobo]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
While we finish up the second 1.0.4 update, we've started work on 1.0.5. 1.0.5 will be a pretty major update in several respects. One thing it should do is to significantly improve save/load speed and save size, which will mean that it will unfortunately not work with older saves, unlike the updates we've released to date.
Regards,- Erik

Does this mean the save load error will be fixed ?