the old Freeze Ray bug HI guys
over on the Matrix forum we got a back and forthing going on over BTR, the one point that is being made is how the Freeze Ray bug ruined the game for any GE player
so, would like to know if you GE types are still seeing it, if so, is it a major hassle, a minor one, or you just don't see it ?
I am thinking it may be more of a H2H game or PBEM hassle (the games I played as GE, the AI likes to send it's fighters out with bombs to attack fields, and this is more sweep thing)
some test I Just ran, I was getting part of the freeze, but the units were fighting, if they are fighting, I do not see it as a hassle, the sweep was caught and is doing what it is suppost to be doing, only it is not going to the way point to do so
would like to hear what you guys are seeing
HARD_Sarge
Werner
Knights Cross with Swords
Posts: 353
(11/7/02 9:03 am)
Reply Re: the old Freeze Ray bug It is still there, but it is a minor problem.
I think it happens usually when they meet in or near a cloud, and so they are circling but do not find each other
And when the clouds are moving on, there often the dog fight begins - so it is a question if this is really a bug
Werner
Laurent
Knights Cross with Swords
Posts: 388
(11/7/02 9:43 am)
Reply Re: the old Freeze Ray bug Hi all,
I agree with Werner. If this is a bug, it is a lucky one, as things like that happened all the times during the war.
Fighters can fight for a while, especially in cloudy conditions, without any damage, just plane chasing each other in clouds, or one unit forming defensive circle and the other side waiting it to be broken.
Freeze bug in my mind is like a very even fight on one place when one Allied fighter unit is blocked on his way to his target by Axis fighter. When one side breaks by lack of fuel or maybe clouds move, they will try to follow initial orders and the fight will resume.
The Dover raid bug is far more annoying for me.
Or the fact that fighter sweeps will strafe anything, even they are unable to do any harm to it and that it is full of Flak. If a fighter unit is scheduled to strafe an A/F, it will do one pass, even if there is 100+ aircraft and no Flak. An unit strafing R/Y will stay here until Flak has hit every plane or fuel is lacking and do nothing......
Result : I almost never use fighter sweeps except over sea or aera with few targets (Balkans). Most of my "sweeps" are Circus raids, bombers or bomb-carrying escort going where I want my fighters (that will escort them) to go.
Von Shagmeister
Knights Cross with Diamonds
Posts: 730
(11/7/02 10:05 am)
Reply Re: the old Freeze Ray bug
Hi All,
I'm still seeing the freeze ray bug. As an Axis player it isn't a problem for me as it often stops fighter sweeps dead in their tracks. I am not seeing much in my PBEM game because my opponent has stopped sending in as many sweeps because of their propensity to strafe anything (usually railyards) except what they were assigned to.
Von Shagmeister
HARD Sarge
When I grow up I'm gonna be a Ta154!!!
Posts: 2253
(11/7/02 10:29 am)
Reply | Edit Re: the old Freeze Ray bug Hi Guys
well one thing I seen, when I was trying to test for it, is not sure if it is really a bug, the object of a sweep it to find a target and fight, well if they hit a bad guy unit, they stop and fight, so hence the freeze, that people used to see, they are not headed to the target anymore, as they have found one
have seen it before, that when they ran into only a small unit, they would hang around in place, either shooting down the small unit or it breaks and runs, then it starts to move again, but most times will not make it to the target area (it has dropped tanks, burned internal fuel)
in first test, shot down 1 on each side, then they broke off, in 2nd test, lost around 16 spits, for 12 109's (teach me to test useing Spit V's and IX's)
so I don't know myself if it is really a bug, but what it is suppost to do, only hassle, is they don't move much, so looks like it is frozen in place, and if they are not shotting anything down, then looks like a freeze
hmmm, just thought of a better test, 51 D's, they will have the range to make it to target once the bad guys run out of gas, that should show if it is indeed a freeze or combat ?
back in a few
HARD_Sarge
HARD Sarge
When I grow up I'm gonna be a Ta154!!!
Posts: 2254
(11/7/02 10:54 am)
Reply | Edit Testing the old Freeze Ray bug Hi Gang
I for one, do not think this is a bug, it is what the game is suppost to do, it just don't look right while it is doing it
I set up some sweeps with 51's (reason I have never seen it like this, I won't use 51's on sweeps)
countered the sweeps with 109 G6's (looking for a endunce mismatch)
the 109's came in, bounced the sweep, traded damaged planes, then they locked into place (flying in circles ?) once the 109's ran out of gas, they broke for home, and the 51's finished the sweep mission, which, they had a target so followed the 109's, of course, they ran into a RR, because they went off track following the 109's
BUT, like I said, once the 'Circleing' stopped, they went on with the mission, they look like they are stopped on the map, but we don't see/read everything that is going on in the game
BUT with earlyer model planes, with lower enduance, it looks like they stop in place and then break for home
FROM what I see, it is not a bug, but a oddity on the map
HARD_Sarge
Laurent
Knights Cross with Swords
Posts: 390
(11/7/02 11:05 am)
Reply Re: Testing the old Freeze Ray bug Hi all,
here the main hassle with the 'freeze ray' is that after stopping fighters will chase Axis planes and fly over an RR and then forget completely the planes and strafe... or maybe they try to kill the German armed guards aboard train with theie hand pistol while diving at 500 kph but that is not really efficient....
I wouldn't care of any sweep that decides to stop or follow his own path if they would not strafe targets they are not scheduled for and get decimated while doing so...
That would be my first priority for bug correction if there is one day another exe version.
HARD Sarge
When I grow up I'm gonna be a Ta154!!!
Posts: 2257
(11/7/02 11:16 am)
Reply | Edit Re: Testing the old Freeze Ray bug Hi Laurent
yes, one big hassle with sweeps, if they see a plane to the side, they can/will get drawn towards them, and if in so doing, they come close to a AF or RR, they will instead start to attack that instead
reason why when I post about sweeps, I talk about the areas that I will head into, there are some great targets, that you could really make a mess in, but also, very easy to get drawn aside
HARD_Sarge
Von Shagmeister
Knights Cross with Diamonds
Posts: 732
(11/7/02 2:49 pm)
Reply Re: Testing the old Freeze Ray bug Hi Sarge,
Chatting with JC a while back over the freeze ray "bug" and I suggested like you say that it's just the twisting and turning of combat. He said that that sounds good but that it's not really supposed to do that (I think, it was a while ago).
I've seen many Allied sweeps try to resume their missions after the Axis has broken for home but as you suggest they rarely have the fuel to make it.
Like Laurent says I think the main hassle for the Allies is that the sweeps tend to strafe other targets and get creamed in the process afterwards.
Von Shagmeister
Edited by: Von Shagmeister at: 11/7/02 2:51:40 pm
Jean Claude Lorusso
Hysterically foisting the Ta 154 upon the World!!!
Posts: 1272
(11/7/02 5:04 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Testing the old Freeze Ray bug HS/Werner/VS, et al:
What was the name of the defensive circling maneuver initially developed by the British? Loughberry?
Attempting to determine if there is a provision for that.
Very interesting posts.
Thanks,
Jean-Claude
Jean Claude Lorusso
Hysterically foisting the Ta 154 upon the World!!!
Posts: 1273
(11/7/02 5:23 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Testing the old Freeze Ray bug All:
Found a provision to narrow the engagement by altitude- while I can't study it right now, it is tantamount to defining certain combats within a vertical plane, versus what we are used to seeing, as mostly in the horizontal plane. Actually, this explains a lot.
Weather as well plays a part in interceptions; so that confirms an observation mentioned up-thread.
Two last items: a split flight function and a Move and Follow routine all can occur during an intercept.
I don't know about you, but this is starting to make a little more sense.
I need to run a few turns to verify my thoughts... geez, and all the planes at start right now are in test-bed mode; well I'll give it a go anyway.
Amazing what we do for the ascerbic,
Jean-obsessed with trivial nonsense-Claude
Laurent
Knights Cross with Swords
Posts: 396
(11/8/02 2:35 am)
Reply Defensive circle tactic The name is luftberry, from the name of a French pilot, Raul Luftberry, who "invented" this tactic.
Pics of him there :
www.1stfighter.org/photos...t_pix.html
Jean Claude Lorusso
Hysterically foisting the Ta 154 upon the World!!!
Posts: 1276
(11/8/02 8:41 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Defensive circle tactic Laurent:
Thank you.
Jean-Claude
HARD Sarge
When I grow up I'm gonna be a Ta154!!!
Posts: 2269
(11/8/02 1:28 pm)
Reply | Edit Re: Defensive circle tactic Hi JC
well, I don't think changing the alt levels between combat will be a help to the Allies, they are already hampered by a lower combat range then the GE (AI ?) cutting the different between combat Alt, will just take away the Allies chances of getting GE planes that break off of combat
the GE can chance his Alt once the fight starts, the Allies can only respond
I thought there was already a 10000 foot limit in place in the game, which would not help/fix the RR attack bug, a high Alt Sweep will still stop and dive down to attack
HARD_Sarge
otisabuser
Knights Cross with Oak Leaves
Posts: 218
(11/9/02 1:59 am)
Reply Freeze Ray Hi all,
I do see lots of these freeze rays in my game vs Allied AI, when they try to sweep bases in Holland.
Having read the other forum, I began to feel uneasy about labelling the use of the freeze ray against an incoming sweep on a busy airfield as a cheat. To me there are three choices:
1) Intercept, head-on or otherwise, with nearby fighters and get locked up in the FR, which seems to happen most times in these interceptions
2) Let the units take off, and plot them to intercept the sweepers on their path home. I put large amounts of flak on my active bases, and know I will get lots of crips on the returning sweep.
3) Do nothing and get my planes shot up on the ground or let them take off to somewhere safe and do nothing with them. This would be a bizarre thing to do,
With hand on heart, it is 2 that I mostly would do vs the AI, because it seems most effective and causes me the least losses. I also now think that it is a bigger cheat than using the FR risk. However, what other options are there ?
I’m sure this would not happen vs a human player, who would quickly wise up to these tactics. Then there would quickly be no deep penetration sweeps. Or, they would follow up sweeps with more fighters on delay.
Regards Otisabuser
Jean Claude Lorusso
Hysterically foisting the Ta 154 upon the World!!!
Posts: 1279
(11/9/02 9:09 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Defensive circle tactic HS:
You misread my statement/meaning.
Nuts- I have to go back and read what I wrote, for the rest, but:
> 10,000' (foot)
limitThat pertains to a 10k foot 'envelope' in which both combat and units can be in- hence the visible discrepancy at times, of what altitude is displayed.
What I meant by "narrowing of engagement zone by altitude" is that combat is occuring in a vertical plane, with a restricted horizontal envelope that has little in the way of forward or lateral movement. Basically a furball in place, in situ, with only vertical movement at that location occuring. Haven't checked for a Luffberry or Luftberry circle, or something similar, yet.
Given the nature of this provision, I can see how 'graphically' it would look completely out of place, in particular, what we are used to seeing during combat.
I'll check my original post now,
Jean-Claude
Jean Claude Lorusso
Hysterically foisting the Ta 154 upon the World!!!
Posts: 1280
(11/9/02 9:48 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Defensive circle tactic HS/Werner/Laurent/OA:
I don't know how many are checking over at the Matrix forum, but 'that' was a furball as well for awhile- I have one more post to put up... but seem to have problems getting my messages to post.
But what is very clear, is that Charles does not understand how software actually works: and one doesn't simply go in looking for the Freeze Ray or the Charles Freeze Ray bug, and expect to have it jump right up at ya, and have it yell- you got me!
Nonetheless, it was the comments from Werner and Laurent that put me in the right direction- weather was one; the stopping of forward movement was the important 'other'.
Now however obvious it sounds or would appear to be after the fact, not thinking in terms of 'forward motion', when it is almost a given in BTR- just about the whole shebang deals with this in some form or other just about the entire time, and to not think in those terms is definitely the not so obvious. And on the basis of your comments I started looking for something that ceased the unit continuing to head for its target- something other than high losses, targets not found, decreasing morale, or increasing fatigue, etc.
And of course, not having a message or mention of what is occurring in the manual, only exacerbates the situation.
Weather during this type of combat definitely plays a role, in terms of visibility, and losing sight of a target- and of course, if the weather is nominal, re-acquiring one's target can be very easy as well; the 'Split' and 'Move and Follow' functions of combat in general, not just this type of combat, would explain as well other things that we see as well during these furballs.
As well, the type of plane, configuration, and it's doctrine determines the types of combats that can occur; thus, this type of thing should/can only happen with Fighters and Fighter-Bombers. And this is the only instance... going off the top of me head hea, where combat in 'strictly' a ***Vertical*** plane can occur.
Thus, what we are seeing, is- a dynamic combat situation that stops forward motion, which 'includes' the traditional changes in fuel state, changes in morale, fatigue, and experience; and the unique factors specific to this type of combat of everything occuring in a vertical plane, compounded by the enhanced loss and reacquisition of targets, plus the traditional 'Split' and 'Move and Follow' factors.
Now while I'm still not ready to rule this out as a bug; I'm almost at the point of certainty of arriving there. Though I could not have done it without Laurent and Werner's help!!!
HS:
Not sure I follow the first statement. Though on the second, the Allies can change their altitude level once combat is engaged... assuming they are in the 'engagement zone'. Once in combat, they can be proactive too... not just reactive.
I hope that helps?
Thanks to all,
Jean-Claude
Von Shagmeister
Knights Cross with Diamonds
Posts: 738
(11/9/02 1:35 pm)
Reply Re: Defensive circle tactic
Hi JC,
I'm inclined to believe that the freeze ray "bug" is just combat over a small area but I cant remember seeing any casualties occuring whilst the units are locked together, they don't occur until one or the other units breaks for home.
Von Shagmeister
