Interested in buying a Gary Grigsby game - but have some questions...

[NagyGL]

I am considering investing into a Gary Grigsby wargame for the first time, but seeing the serious commitment needed (both money and time-wise), I thought it wise to seek for the input of the community.

My background: I usually play simpler games such as OOB:Pacific, TOAW and Panzer Corps. Now I am interested in getting into more realistic stuff. I am sure I can handle complexity... but I do not have an infinite amount of time to play.

I am considering buying WitE, WitW, WitP:AE or none of them. I watched some Let's plays and read some reviews (my impressions are indeed positive for these games, with WitE seeming to be the most popular), but I still have some questions left:

1. What is the realistic time commitment of - let's say - one campaign in net hours? Is there a significant difference between these three games time-wise? (Important to me to see if I can balance this with my other commitments.)

2. I may want to play PBEM later. With which game do I have a higher chance to find opponents? Are all three communities active?

3. I have an interest in naval warfare as well, which WitP:AE has plenty and WitE has none. What about WitW? What about land warfare in WitP:AE - is it well implemented?

4. I would also ask which do you consider as the best game technically (UI, bugs, lag)?

I know that answers may differ in the WitW or WitP community, so I tried to ask questions that can be answered objectively. Still, if you have any - even subjective - advice, please do not hesitate to let me know.

[loki100]

This is hugely subjective (and I don't play WiTP) but

- a campaign in WiTE (vs AI will probably take you 6+ months), a campaign in WITW 3+ months. PBEM for WiTE - year (more or less), WiTW say 6 months. Both have lots of shorter scenarios some that you can easily play in an afternoon

- naval war in WiTW is pretty abstract. The allies have task forces that are sort of a mix between transport assets and naval squadrons, the real focus in WiTW is the air war

- both are pretty active PBEM, easy enough to find opponents

- both are pretty mature in terms of UI etc. WiTW is the more recent iteration of the WiTE game engine and has better air and logistic rules. Crashes etc are so rare as to be a non-issue.

[Mehring]

Depends on play style, but if you get to understand and savour micromanaging the game's finer details a 1941 WitE PBEM campaign going to full term could burn 800 hours+ at an unhurried pace. How long it takes to complete depends how many turns you and your opponent can do a week. The downside to this is that patches sometimes fundamentally alter the goal posts so you might say, as Russia, evacuate east all the heavy industry you need under one game version only to find it's insufficient when you upgrade. Games don't always go to term though. Well worth it if you have the time and plenty of players spend less time.

[Commanderski]

1. For a full campaign in WITE it can take 6 months or more, a lot shorter in WITW. For a full grand campaign in WITP I've heard it can take as long as the real war, up to 4 years.

2. You won't have any problems finding an opponent for any of those games. The AI for WITE and WITW is the best there is and will give you a very good fight. Once you have played on the Normal levels to get the hang of the game mechanics you can adjust the various aspects of the opposing AI and it will make it very challenging for you. I think the vast majority of people play against the AI and a lot of us have been playing since it first came out.

3. For naval activity WITP is where you want to go. WITW is mainly troop transports for their naval activity.

4. The longer the game has been around the more refined it is. A new patch is coming out for both WITE and WITW very shortly and the number of patches are not that frequent anymore so it shouldn't interfere with any campaign games if you start them.

If you have any questions on any aspects of the game and post them on the forum you will usually get a quick answer and more than one response.

Hope to see you more regularly on the forum.

[NagyGL]

Thanks to you all for the quick response. Based on these I lean towards WITE / WITW with a slight edge to WITW due to the air warfare and the shorter campaign time you mentioned (and maybe the theater as well). Still, I take my time and dig around here a bit then

As for WITP...

For a full grand campaign in WITP I've heard it can take as long as the real war, up to 4 years.

Just... Wow.

[invernomuto]

ORIGINAL: NagyGL
Thanks to you all for the quick response. Based on these I lean towards WITE / WITW with a slight edge to WITW due to the air warfare and the shorter campaign time you mentioned (and maybe the theater as well). Still, I take my time and dig around here a bit then

I own both. Ostfront for me is more fashinating than France and Italy BUT WITW is better with its updated logistic model and the more advanced air warfare. I would recommend WITW.
My two eurocents

ORIGINAL: NagyGL

As for WITP...

For a full grand campaign in WITP I've heard it can take as long as the real war, up to 4 years.

Just... Wow.

Yeah, WITP Grand Campaign start from 7th dec 1941 and ends in 1946 (or before, if Japan surrenders).
There are daily turns instead of weekly turn as in WITE/WITW, so a PBEM game can take a lot of time.

[Hermann]

wite has the shortest learning curve and best playability in a shift from the operational games. witw is a tough play - theres a lot of waiting. witp is a huge stretch .

[NagyGL]

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

Yeah, WITP Grand Campaign start from 7th dec 1941 and ends in 1946 (or before, if Japan surrenders).
There are daily turns instead of weekly turn as in WITE/WITW, so a PBEM game can take a lot of time.

That's ~1600 turns in PBEM. That explains a lot

ORIGINAL: Hermann

wite has the shortest learning curve and best playability in a shift from the operational games. witw is a tough play - theres a lot of waiting.

I think I understand your point about WITE (you think about "only" land and more simple logistic rules?). But what do you mean by the waiting? (For the AI? Or in PBEM? Or many turns before the real action starts?)

Thanks for the great considerations for all.

[Hermann]

Witw has a very cumbersome AI air air interface. you can wait 15-20 minutes for the air to complete each turn. For an air aficionado its heaven but for someone transitioning from tactical you'll pull your hair out.

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: Hermann

Witw has a very cumbersome AI air interface. you can wait 15-20 minutes for the air to complete each turn. For an air aficionado its heaven but for someone transitioning from tactical you'll pull your hair out.

If you dial back the execution detail it runs significantly quicker (less than 5 minutes). Post on the WitW forum if you need guidance on how to do it.

[invernomuto]

ORIGINAL: NagyGL
But what do you mean by the waiting? (For the AI? Or in PBEM? Or many turns before the real action starts?)

In the Grand Campaign 43-45 you have to manage Allied strategical air warfare.
While most of the air raid can be delegated to the AI (you could only set general prority target in the planning phase and let the AI generate the appropriate Air Directives), in the resolution phase you have to watch a week of raids over Germany and Italy.
However, you could set 4 levels of details: from 1 - no details, where air phase resolution is very quick, to 4 - max details where you will see the raid following the path and every interceptions by enemy CAP.
You can also skip entirely details for some missions (like Recon ones) and you can close the report window for every raid pressing ESC.

[Revthought]

I would also say this to distinguish WiTE and WiTW. In WiTW, depending on the "side" you are playing, you are more or less confined to being on the offensive or defensive the entire game because it only covers the war starting in 1943.

The game campaign in WiTE, on the other hand, gives the Soviet and German player a chance to play on both sides of the ball.

[NagyGL]

All right... So, I just summarized this to myself, comparing WITE and WITW:

WITW:

+ Needs approx. half the time to complete a campaign
+ Has better logistics rules
+ Has a new air warfare model...
- ... but which is, for some, more hassle than fun
- Have a bit less active PBEM and community
- Confined to defend / attack depending on the side played

WITE:

+ Easier to learn
+ Has an epic scope
+ Need to defend or attack changes dynamically (like in history)
- Misses air & logistics improvements of WITW
- Takes 2x time due to scope and amount of pieces to move

And of course: theater can be a + / - on either side as per personal preference.

Is this basically it? [:)]

[No idea]

ORIGINAL: NagyGL

All right... So, I just summarized this to myself, comparing WITE and WITW:

WITW:

+ Needs approx. half the time to complete a campaign
+ Has better logistics rules
+ Has a new air warfare model...
- ... but which is, for some, more hassle than fun
- Have a bit less active PBEM and community
- Confined to defend / attack depending on the side played

WITE:

+ Easier to learn
+ Has an epic scope
+ Need to defend or attack changes dynamically (like in history)
- Misses air & logistics improvements of WITW
- Takes 2x time due to scope and amount of pieces to move

And of course: theater can be a + / - on either side as per personal preference.

Is this basically it? [:)]

I think so, although I havent played WITW, that is basically what I have heard from other players.

One thing, WITW is going to get a new expansion covering the France 1940 campaign (and I guess Norway). However, I think they will just make scenarios, not a grand campaign going from 1940 to 1945. Which is a pity.

[RedLancer]

We are not working on expanding WitW to cover France 1940. We are working on WitE2.0.

I think we would all like a grand european campaign from 1940 - 45 but the challenges to deliver it are considerable so don't hold your breath.

[No idea]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

We are not working on expanding WitW to cover France 1940. We are working on WitE2.0.

I think we would all like a grand european campaign from 1940 - 45 but the challenges to deliver it are considerable so don't hold your breath.

Ummm... Then I guess I have been dreaming about WITW.

[RedLancer]

It was considered as an option but for good reasons we thought we'd do WitE2.0 next.

[Revthought]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

We are not working on expanding WitW to cover France 1940. We are working on WitE2.0.

I think we would all like a grand european campaign from 1940 - 45 but the challenges to deliver it are considerable so don't hold your breath.

That would be a great game, but a LOT of work. I think a Western 1940-45 would be easier, where you abstracted the East Front as it is now. Hell, I'd settle for a real naval model for WItW and strategic bombing that nets you more than vps as a result--bombing Uboat Shipyards (or defending/seizing Uboat bases on the ground).

[RedLancer]

To push the timeline back to 1940 (or 39 for that matter) means that you have two key tasks:

- Developing a naval module that fits and works. This is no easy task. The addition of the WitW changes to air, amphib and logistics took 4 years.
- Expanding the data. This is not only historical land and air data but also adding all the naval data. Even using an EF Box you still need all the data.

Excepting North Africa and the Med - 1941 to late 1942 is not the most exciting period without the Eastern Front. WitW 40-45 would be easier than Europe but WitE2.0 is currently more deliverable.

[Revthought]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

To push the timeline back to 1940 (or 39 for that matter) means that you have two key tasks:

- Developing a naval module that fits and works. This is no easy task. The addition of the WitW changes to air, amphib and logistics took 4 years.
- Expanding the data. This is not only historical land and air data but also adding all the naval data. Even using an EF Box you still need all the data.

Excepting North Africa and the Med - 1941 to late 1942 is not the most exciting period without the Eastern Front. WitW 40-45 would be easier than Europe but WitE2.0 is currently more deliverable.

Yes, thinking about it, you would need to expand the map and possibly add a "strategic" component, though maybe not. You'd really need all of Norway, and probably more of the Mediterranean/Balkans.

But, yes, you are right. Lots of work. Consider me musing about what you could do in the not necessarily immediate future.

Edit.

To properly model the naval war you'd need to add at least some abstraction of the north and south Atlantic.

Also, you have a fine naval mode to work with (with modification of course) in WiTP!