Support Unit Commitment

[Cheeks]

I’ve been digesting the manual a few sections at a time for about a week now. I’m starting to see the small parts of the “Big Picture”.

A question that I have concerns the Support Units attached to a Headquarters Unit or a Combat Unit. Why would I choose to have any Support Units attached to a Headquarters unit instead of the Combat Unit and risk non-commitment?

[usecase]

There are limits to what can be directly attached. For (say) Soviet Rifle Corps, you can attach a tank battalion or a sapper regiment, but not an artillery regiment.

It's also lacking in flexibility (having said that, I'm not terribly impressed with the flow of support units - I may be doing something wrong, but the Volga & Urals M.D.s seem to snaffle my valuable construction troops despite my best efforts otherwise [ I'm aware of the hardcoded limits, this is differnt] ).

[Zovs]

Why would I choose to have any Support Units attached to a Headquarters unit instead of the Combat Unit and risk non-commitment?

There are several, first German Divisions and Soviet Corps combat units can only have up to 3 combat support units attached to them and these are limited to non-artillery and construction types. Also, each HQ has a leader assigned to it and a command radius. If the assigned combat units fight in a battle (attack or defense) then the Leader must pass several checks if he passes he can send in combat support units to assist the attached units. There is limits but there is the possibility that multiple battles could produce multiple SU being sent to their aid.

Any SU directly attached to a division (or Soviet Corps) will always be committed to that action.

[matt3916]

Re "Why would I choose to have any Support Units attached to a Headquarters unit instead of the Combat Unit and risk non-commitment?"

The disadvantage is, as you've noted, the possibility of not being committed. The (potential) advantage is the reverse of this, i.e., a support unit attached to an HQ has a chance (depending on the die rolls) of participating in EVERY combat in which ANY unit belonging to that HQ participates.

[WilliePete]

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

Why would I choose to have any Support Units attached to a Headquarters unit instead of the Combat Unit and risk non-commitment?

There are several, first German Divisions and Soviet Corps combat units can only have up to 3 combat support units attached to them and these are limited to non-artillery and construction types. Also, each HQ has a leader assigned to it and a command radius. If the assigned combat units fight in a battle (attack or defense) then the Leader must pass several checks if he passes he can send in combat support units to assist the attached units. There is limits but there is the possibility that multiple battles could produce multiple SU being sent to their aid.

Any SU directly attached to a division (or Soviet Corps) will always be committed to that action.

This is one aspect of the game that I'm having a hard time understanding, or at least use in the best way. I noticed that when SUs are attached directly to a division they are in fact always in the fight, but their combat value is usually a zero. Does that mean they are not really helping?

[ComradeP]

No, it just means that the game notes their value as 0, whilst actually it isn't 0. Combat support units should also generally not have a 0, as primarily artillery should have a 0 based on their equipment (artillery) not having a CV weight of 1 or higher.

[Jabba]

The (potential) advantage is the reverse of this, i.e., a support unit attached to an HQ has a chance (depending on the die rolls) of participating in EVERY combat in which ANY unit belonging to that HQ participates.

So anybody got any idea of what the probability is, approximately, of a support unit at HQ getting committed to a given combat?

One problem I have with this game is that there is a lot of crucial information like this that is never spelled out.

[squatter]

I agree its a little baffling why certain mechanics of the game are detailed ad nauseum (supply chance=distance to rail/leadercheck*die+1-TOE) while others are ommitted.

[Timmeh]

The maximum number of attached support units that can be commitment by headquarters

units to a single battle is 6, with the exception where the defending combat units are in a

light urban or heavy urban hex, where the maximum is 18. Support unit commitment from

headquarters units is not automatic. For each support unit attempting to be committed, the

leader of that headquarters must pass an initiative check. The support unit must then pass

several checks, with the checks becoming more difficult based both on the number of support

units already committed and the total number of non-construction support units attached

to the headquarters unit. This means that Headquarters units with large numbers of nonconstruction

support units will have more opportunities to commit support units; however the

overall probability of each support unit being committed will be less than if the headquarters

units had fewer non-construction support units. Support units directly attached to eligible

combat units will be automatically committed to a battle involving that combat unit and do not

count against the HQ unit maximums discussed above. Note that the only combat units that

artillery support units can be directly attached to are fortified region and zone units (7.5.2).

[Rosseau]

Against the AI, I let the computer routines handle support commitment. Against another player, I could see why you'd want to micromanage and squeeze every drop out.

Almost forgot to wish WitE a happy birthday. It's one month old today. I've been playing it about 3 hours pretty much every day since release, so I've already got my money's worth.

What? That $80 was for a one-month subscription? Sign me up for another month!

[Jabba]

The maximum number of attached support units that can be commitment by headquarters

units to a single battle is 6, with the exception where the defending combat units are in a

light urban or heavy urban hex, where the maximum is 18. Support unit commitment from

headquarters units is not automatic. For each support unit attempting to be committed, the

leader of that headquarters must pass an initiative check. The support unit must then pass

several checks, with the checks becoming more difficult based both on the number of support

units already committed and the total number of non-construction support units attached

to the headquarters unit. This means that Headquarters units with large numbers of nonconstruction

support units will have more opportunities to commit support units; however the

overall probability of each support unit being committed will be less than if the headquarters

units had fewer non-construction support units. Support units directly attached to eligible

combat units will be automatically committed to a battle involving that combat unit and do not

count against the HQ unit maximums discussed above. Note that the only combat units that

artillery support units can be directly attached to are fortified region and zone units (7.5.2).

I am still none the wiser what the statistical probability is of a support unit being committed. Unless the probability is reasonably high there is little incentive to leave support units attached to HQs.

Instead of saying "less than", "more opportunities", "more difficult", it would be more helpful to give some concrete examples and explain the percentage probability in each case.

[karonagames]

Support unit commitment is linked to the controlling leader's initiative rating, so a leader with a rating of 6 will seeing a higher level of units committed than a leader with a rating of 5. There are several other factors taken into account, so it is not a straightforward 60% chance or 50% chance.

All the manual says in section 15.4 is "a series of checks".

[Jabba]

so it is not a straightforward 60% chance or 50% chance

Well, I can see that. But how do people make any kind of decisions unless they have some inkling of what the probable outcomes are?

At the moment I have simply no idea whether it is worthwhile leaving support units attached to HQs, because I have no information about the likelihood of these units being committed to battle.

What have people observed in their games about the frequency of support unit commitment? What rules of thumb do people use?

All the manual says in section 15.4 is "a series of checks"

[&:]

[karonagames]

The rule of thumb I use is that when I am on the attack and I have must win objectives I will attach SUs directly to units, on the defensive I will have SUs in HQs with high initiative leaders in the most threatened sectors.

[PMCN]

The frequency of soviet commitment is rather poor at least for the leaders I have now in 41. In general the soviet commitment is usually 0-1, and on the rare occasion 2. But then I these guys have initiatives of 3-5 from what I remember. It is important to remember that the soviets only get Fortified Regions until their cavalry corps show up that can attach SUs. So until december when you can make cavalry corps you can't attach SU to anything but the F.R.'s and so you will se battles where the Germans have 6 SU and you have 0-2.

The other annoying thing is that often the commitment is a bit off, like say adding an AT Art Rgt when the enemy has no tanks or an AA Bn when the enemy has no bombers.

For the soviets the CV is usually 0, even for things like motorcycle Rgt since your morale and experience of these units is very low. Artillery always has a CV of 0 but that doesn't matter since its effect is destroy the enemy in the fight which will affect the final odds indirectly.

Having just got cavalry corps I'm going to experiment with attaching sapper bn, ski bn and later some light anti-armour or a motorcycle Rgt/seperate Tank Bn.

[ComradeP]

Soviet support units tend to be bigger than Axis ones, so 2 of theirs could equal 6 Axis ones in quantity.

[FJeff]

Am I correct in believing that command range is determined during the logistics phase and a HQ will support a unit that has moved and is in a battle beyond that range?

[usecase]

Soviet separate tank battalions upgrade to tank regiments in September '42 (gives you 39 afvs per regiment split 23 medium/16 light). They further upgrade to a full complement of 41 T34s in April 1944 (with intermediate steps along the way). That's roughly 2/3 of a tank brigade.

Given the heavy pressure tank and mechanised corps put on your transport pool, I'm going to play around with rifle corps augmented with (from Mar '43 on) a tank regiment, medium or heavy assault guns and some permutation of engineers, AA or AT.

A vanilla rifle corps with 3 regiments of tanks looks thusly:

[Zovs]

ORIGINAL: FJeff

Am I correct in believing that command range is determined during the logistics phase and a HQ will support a unit that has moved and is in a battle beyond that range?

You are not correct. The command range is in effect and dynamic. You move a unit out of command range and it attacks no support unit commitment available. If you move a unit out of C2 and then move the HQ and put it back in C2 and then attack SU commitment possible.

[FJeff]

Thanks. And moving a HQ causes an initiative penalty?