1.12.05 - WAD or am I mismanaging?

[Disgruntled Veteran]

I'm a bit aggravated/confused so maybe some community feedback can help out.

As a long time axis player I am finding my airforce is quickly becoming obsolete by August 1941. In my current game (a very good soviet player) I am observing worrisome trends and want to have some advice. Observations include:

-losing around 100-200 planes per turn, on my last few off turns, by enemy bombing. I can have fresh fighters and a bazillion flak guns, but they seem to take the day off when soviet attacks come. The attacks are coming by daytime. Has this always been the case and I'm just now finding a player who utilizes this?

-My airforce loses morale and suffers losses during my active turn at a much higher rate. I currently am about 30-40% airforce due to me sending about a dozen groups a turn back to reserve. The rest are all under strength and many are hovering around 60-70 morale. I'm on T011.

I have utilized my airforce in the same way as previous versions. So, the questions are:

-Is this WAD in 1.12+?

-Is this bad airforce management? I run 30% required to fly with the aircraft %'s at 100. I try to triple stack counters with all loaded with flak and I try to leave fighters with 30-40% usage at the end of turn.

Would love some feedback. I'm not bitching per se, I just want help in understanding how to play axis airforce better in 1.12. Thanks

[joelmar]

There is currently a bug with interception which Morvael said will be fixed on the next patch. It has to do with the new on demand airgroup supply system that doesn't trigger truck deliveries correctly for interception.

I might be off the track, but my observations are that airbases far from rail do almost no interception, those near rail do better, but it still seems too low.

I use 5% required to fly. I also understand that it's better to use very high fighter interception, like 200%-300%, I don't really get the logic of it, but I'm experimenting with it.

Until it's fixed, I try to keep all my airbases on rail or very near.

[tyronec]

Am no expert but would suggest the following:
Put intercept up to 300%
Keep all your air units close together. There are maybe enough fighters to protect just 2 or 3 huddles.
Keep them back from the front.
Do not allow the fighters to do any intercepts that are not necessary (by adjusting their range).
Get their fatigue right down.

I am really struggling with the air war, the VVS have got the upper hand in both my games. Maybe the Luftwaffe are too weak in '41 and '42 or maybe I have been miss playing them. Having said that any increase in their strength would need some rebalancing elsewhere.

[chaos45]

For axis, its about distance, using Flak to cover airfields, low fatigue...and stay together esp after 1941.

[Disgruntled Veteran]

Thanks to all. I was particularly wondering if this revolved around the recent changes of 1.12+ It would seem possible that it does. I did forget to turn interdiction off this game (I never use interdiction) and I am playing a skilled, aggressive Soviet player. These are factors too.

So, I've turned aircraft participation to 10%, clumped all airfields with other units (always 3 deep) and distributed 3 flak units to each fliegerkorps, and I also turned interdiction to 0. I'll let you know how it affects everything.

As of T011 I'd lost just shy of 800 planes on the ground.

[tyronec]

Am not sure about using using Flak to cover airfields. Most of the fighter losses seem to come from fatigue when they are doing air cover and the only way to protect against that is to have low fatigue and high interception during the Soviet turn. If the fighter protection is good then the Soviets will take big losses and will be forced to give up air base bombing.
If you try and protect air bases with AA then that in itself will reduce the bombing damage but will not protect the fighters in the air. But you have to protect your fighters and good air cover is the only way to do that.
So maybe better to use the AA to protect ground troops. Or put them with Corps HQs and use them as ground combat support troops.
Maybe am missing something but that is what recent play has led me to think.

[Disgruntled Veteran]

I do understand that, but most of my losses are from my planes getting bombed. Maybe this is because they are too fatigued to fly...that seems to be what you're implying, but I've lost 750 planes on the ground after 10 turns. That is crazy. Airbase bombing almost never yielded results after T1 for either side. In 1.11 flak was so potent that it made airbase bombing very problematic. Now they fire nerf rounds.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

I do understand that, but most of my losses are from my planes getting bombed. Maybe this is because they are too fatigued to fly...that seems to be what you're implying, but I've lost 750 planes on the ground after 10 turns. That is crazy. Airbase bombing almost never yielded results after T1 for either side. In 1.11 flak was so potent that it made airbase bombing very problematic. Now they fire nerf rounds.

To be honest the flak in v1.11 was way overpowered - and that was not historical either.

If your problem is airbase bombing keep your airbases beyond enemy fighter range. Your fighters would then massacre Soviet bombers bombing your airbases ...

[Disgruntled Veteran]

Flak was a bit OP, but it cut both ways.

I know I could keep my airbases back, but is that the way it should be when this game has been out for almost 10 years? If my fighters have to fly 10 or more hexes just to reach the front, they will lose significant utility. Stacked airbases with plenty of fighters shouldn't get annihilated just sitting on the ground.

I do greatly appreciate the feedback and thank you all for responding. I'm just voicing a bit of frustration over not knowing how the game mechanics work. I've played about 12 full axis games since 2013 and I don't think I've lost 800 planes on the ground in all those games combined.

So it is a flaw in 1.12? OR Operator error? I'll keep posting feedback and see if my adjustments make a difference. I told my opponent to press as hard as he can.

[joelmar]

Might or might not... but in the meantime the interception bug is very real and has many consequences, not just on airbase bombing interception.

fb.asp?m=4815759

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran
So it is a flaw in 1.12? OR Operator error? I'll keep posting feedback and see if my adjustments make a difference. I told my opponent to press as hard as he can.

All points above are true. But also bluntly there was a change of paradigm or meta. When I first became involved in these forums the general repsonse was the air does not matter much and there was not much you could do. When I started using the techniques and methods I was used to from other wargaming places, they were just shattering on oppoents. In the 8MP game the whole Soviet air force had to move to the national reserve by the end of the summer. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4250683

So I would say some of it was just people in Matrix forums did not use the air tactics and methods that were known elsewhere until recently.

[Disgruntled Veteran]

I forget when, but at one point the power of air became crucial. Doing a softening up ground attack can disrupt half the stack making your attacks multitudes easier. Close air support is essential in breaking up a solid line.

[BrianG]

I would describe the air action in my game versus Tyronec

He bombs heavily my units he is about to attack. That's it for him. His airgroups are very bunched for protection and give good attack.

For me, I bomb units i am about to attack, i attack his airfields especially to kill recon and general front line day and night bombing.

My fighters do zilch when he air ground attacks my units. His fighters will only intercept on my ground attacks and on my airbase attacks. Not on general bombing.

Result is i have some very high morale tactical L2 bombers. and filled Russian units.

He has not been attacking my airbases. Why bother when you are steamrolling on the ground. And i cannot stop his concentration from the air when he wants superiority.

We are at turn 57.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: BrianG
i attack his airfields especially to kill recon

Given that the Axis have almost limitless cheap recon that cannot be a profitable tactic. The choke point for the Axis is single engine fighters, not recon.

[56ajax]

In one of my recent games my opponent bombed the Luftwaffe into the dark ages by about T14. I ain't too flash as the Axis so would be interested to hear what expert axis players think.

[Telemecus]

You can certainly preserve a very effective LW in 1941 just by keeping your fighter bases outside of enemy escort range. The Axis have longer range fighters than the soviets do. Plus they can use staging bases on their side of the front line which the other side cannot. So there is no reason not to do this. Whether you want to expose your fighters to enemy combat in the air beyond that during their turn the real question, not can you keep your fighters from being bombed. You can stop that if you want to.

[BrianG]

Given that the Axis have almost limitless cheap recon that cannot be a profitable tactic. The choke point for the Axis is single engine fighters, not recon.

like how many do they have or get in campaign

German short range recon

and how many strategic recon?.

approximates?

[Telemecus]

Axis start with 584 recon already in airgroups and about 340 in the pool on the start of turn 1. They deliver about 20 per turn to the Eastern front during the game from factories. Several hundred more arrive in airgroups that arrive to the Eastern front in later turns. In addition other types of aircraft, like Gladiator fighters or Heinkel bombers, are converted TO recon aircraft. Finland even upgrades its bomber factory to be a recon aircraft factory!

I challenge anyone to show me a game where Axis did not have enough recon for their needs. When a Soviet player bombs my recon I laugh and push my recon bases further forward hoping they will waste their time doing it more. I criticise Axis players for having recon losses which are too low! [:D]

[redrum68]

Those poor German recon pilots...

[BrianG]

692 recon

164 strategic

German air kia so far.

I think the short range recon get replenished as does the strategic.

If I ever get to 1944 I'll report back on how the strategy is working out