2 novices take on the campaign - a different AAR
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
Turn 16 - The end of summer
Turn 16 - The end of summer
Arm - 362
HI - 228
As summer draws to a close thedrillsgt makes several big thrusts with this mobile units. In the north, he drives straight for the Urals. At Moscow, he cuts straight in (having given up north of Rzhev) and also south of the Oka. In the south, he drives north and south towards the twin cities.
All of these thrusts are thin, and to my mind, late in the season. Mud is setting in, so I decide in all cases to snuggle up close to the German spearheads and share his rations during October. I hope this will leave him very short of supply for the few weeks of snow before blizzard.
I have skipped a few turns and chosen to write up this one because it is the end of the summer campaign and time to reflect. I will pick this up in my next post.
Arm - 362
HI - 228
As summer draws to a close thedrillsgt makes several big thrusts with this mobile units. In the north, he drives straight for the Urals. At Moscow, he cuts straight in (having given up north of Rzhev) and also south of the Oka. In the south, he drives north and south towards the twin cities.
All of these thrusts are thin, and to my mind, late in the season. Mud is setting in, so I decide in all cases to snuggle up close to the German spearheads and share his rations during October. I hope this will leave him very short of supply for the few weeks of snow before blizzard.
I have skipped a few turns and chosen to write up this one because it is the end of the summer campaign and time to reflect. I will pick this up in my next post.
RKhan
Turn 16 - The end of summer
The end of summer - recap
With huge apologies in advance for any mistakes, I present my situation in light of the greats who have gone before:
With huge apologies in advance for any mistakes, I present my situation in light of the greats who have gone before:
- Attachments
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RKhan
Turn 16 - The end of summer
The end of summer - recap
I think the map above points out, above all else, the learning curve of the German player. Both of us are completely new to this and have made mistakes, but the tally of these weighs on the German more heavily. Credit to thedrillsgt then for stepping up. The open question is whether against another novice this is fatal and time will tell.
I won't comment on what thedrillsgt may have done wrong as that is not my place, and I did not see it from his side.
But from the Soviet side I have made the following unforced errors:
1. Mis-judging the fall back distance - several times
2. Not attacking when I could - but I am doing this much better now
3. Not getting my airforce fully engaged early
4. Losing half a mech army in the Pripet because I got cocky
If I give myself credit for anything it is adapting quickly. I think I also organised and managed my army well but time will tell.
I'm still struggling with support units. I have sorted out most of it in my head, but one last thing nags me: does the AI allocate SUs intelligently or not? For example, does it send AT guns to infantry only battles? I suppose I will see the evidence over time.
I think the map above points out, above all else, the learning curve of the German player. Both of us are completely new to this and have made mistakes, but the tally of these weighs on the German more heavily. Credit to thedrillsgt then for stepping up. The open question is whether against another novice this is fatal and time will tell.
I won't comment on what thedrillsgt may have done wrong as that is not my place, and I did not see it from his side.
But from the Soviet side I have made the following unforced errors:
1. Mis-judging the fall back distance - several times
2. Not attacking when I could - but I am doing this much better now
3. Not getting my airforce fully engaged early
4. Losing half a mech army in the Pripet because I got cocky
If I give myself credit for anything it is adapting quickly. I think I also organised and managed my army well but time will tell.
I'm still struggling with support units. I have sorted out most of it in my head, but one last thing nags me: does the AI allocate SUs intelligently or not? For example, does it send AT guns to infantry only battles? I suppose I will see the evidence over time.
RKhan
Thoughts on the game
The end of summer - thoughts on the game
This is my early opinion of WITE.
The best think about this game is that I feel like I'm fighting the war, ridiculous as that is since no one is shooting at me.
I say this because the games takes me on an emotional journey which I really enjoy - euphoria, depression, anger, excitement, anticipation, its all there. I attribute this not just to the incredible detail and investment of time which creates a real interest in the outcome, but because I really don't know if my moves are correct, and won't know if many cases for many weeks or months in the game. This is to my mind what is best about a game.
However, I do wonder if all that detail is really required to achieve the emotional response. Abstracting each type of tank factory, for example, may not add real value. Of course, one could say if the developer wants to do the work then let's have it. But I think the downside is a simulation which is so complex that it opens itself up to exploits and unintended consequences. I think the AARs on this forum are sufficient evidence for this. A slightly more simple game may not sacrifice the emotional high and ought to damp down the issues.
And I have read most of the AARs now, which I find fascinating. On the one hand, I read them like alternative history and find the various outcomes, and the details that lead to them, fire up my imagination. Credit to Loki for the best of these IMHO.
On the other hand, it is interesting to see that there are different types of players out there, both in game style and in what they want out of the game. One division might be between those (like me) who like a good historical simulation which re-imagines the alternative histories out there while presenting an intellectual challenge. But the other side of this division seems to really want a tennis match: a game that always has the same initial conditions against which they can then optimise a strategy to exploit the game engine and their opponent. I won't name any; you can tell who they are by how loudly they complain about changes or exploits that don't go their way.
This is my early opinion of WITE.
The best think about this game is that I feel like I'm fighting the war, ridiculous as that is since no one is shooting at me.
I say this because the games takes me on an emotional journey which I really enjoy - euphoria, depression, anger, excitement, anticipation, its all there. I attribute this not just to the incredible detail and investment of time which creates a real interest in the outcome, but because I really don't know if my moves are correct, and won't know if many cases for many weeks or months in the game. This is to my mind what is best about a game.
However, I do wonder if all that detail is really required to achieve the emotional response. Abstracting each type of tank factory, for example, may not add real value. Of course, one could say if the developer wants to do the work then let's have it. But I think the downside is a simulation which is so complex that it opens itself up to exploits and unintended consequences. I think the AARs on this forum are sufficient evidence for this. A slightly more simple game may not sacrifice the emotional high and ought to damp down the issues.
And I have read most of the AARs now, which I find fascinating. On the one hand, I read them like alternative history and find the various outcomes, and the details that lead to them, fire up my imagination. Credit to Loki for the best of these IMHO.
On the other hand, it is interesting to see that there are different types of players out there, both in game style and in what they want out of the game. One division might be between those (like me) who like a good historical simulation which re-imagines the alternative histories out there while presenting an intellectual challenge. But the other side of this division seems to really want a tennis match: a game that always has the same initial conditions against which they can then optimise a strategy to exploit the game engine and their opponent. I won't name any; you can tell who they are by how loudly they complain about changes or exploits that don't go their way.
RKhan
Closing thoughts
Closing thoughts -
I started this AAR so I could share with others the experience of two new players learning the game. Perhaps 16 turns of this is enough - though I know there is plenty more to learn on my part.
I'm happy to continue this AAR but perhaps only every few turns, or when interesting things happen, or just to share my thoughts on the game. The turn by turn blow by blow has not generated much comment. I would appreciate any thoughts or constructive criticism on this point. I don't want to just be writing this for me. I was hoping thedrillsgt would join in but I have come to learn he is a man of few words so I don't think it likely ( and all respect to my opponent if he is actually reading this).
I started this AAR so I could share with others the experience of two new players learning the game. Perhaps 16 turns of this is enough - though I know there is plenty more to learn on my part.
I'm happy to continue this AAR but perhaps only every few turns, or when interesting things happen, or just to share my thoughts on the game. The turn by turn blow by blow has not generated much comment. I would appreciate any thoughts or constructive criticism on this point. I don't want to just be writing this for me. I was hoping thedrillsgt would join in but I have come to learn he is a man of few words so I don't think it likely ( and all respect to my opponent if he is actually reading this).
RKhan
RE: Closing thoughts
ehh alot of people read but dont comment. With mine I found skipping the slow turns and only reporting the turns big things happened was the best.
RE: Turn 12 - Lake Ilmen captured
I hope you keep the AAR going even if it's just occasional updates. A lot of people read them without commenting so don't be put off. Also AARs are very useful for developers.
To be honest I think I would offer to resign the Axis position at this point. You have the game in the bag.
Take on one of the forum top guns for a more exciting game which will likely generate more comments.
To be honest I think I would offer to resign the Axis position at this point. You have the game in the bag.
Take on one of the forum top guns for a more exciting game which will likely generate more comments.
RE: Turn 12 - Lake Ilmen captured
ORIGINAL: timmyab
I hope you keep the AAR going even if it's just occasional updates. A lot of people read them without commenting so don't be put off. Also AARs are very useful for developers.
To be honest I think I would offer to resign the Axis position at this point. You have the game in the bag.
Take on one of the forum top guns for a more exciting game which will likely generate more comments.
I have offered this to thedrillsgt but [font="Courier New"]I think[/font] we are trying to preserve to the end of the year for the experience. He is a man of few words as I said.
I have also offered to switch sides.
RKhan
RE: Closing thoughts
ORIGINAL: RKhan
Closing thoughts -
I started this AAR so I could share with others the experience of two new players learning the game. Perhaps 16 turns of this is enough - though I know there is plenty more to learn on my part.
I'm happy to continue this AAR but perhaps only every few turns, or when interesting things happen, or just to share my thoughts on the game. The turn by turn blow by blow has not generated much comment. I would appreciate any thoughts or constructive criticism on this point. I don't want to just be writing this for me. I was hoping thedrillsgt would join in but I have come to learn he is a man of few words so I don't think it likely ( and all respect to my opponent if he is actually reading this).
don't worry too much at the ratio of views:comments. Different forums seem to have very different cultures in this respect. In part as in its early iteration the Paradox AAR forum was dominated by 'writers' with a tendency to all sorts of narrative/comedy treatments, then it also spawned a very active model of comments and responses. I find here (and the AGEOD boards where I am also active) there is much more a tradition of the AAR as a gameplay report (nothing at all wrong with that) and the comment then is something that is offered if someone wants to criticise/praise/discuss an aspect of gameplay.
As Timmyab says, all AARs are of value to the developers.
A wider problem with WiTE is its now a pretty 'mature' game (ignoring the shifts triggered by patches), so there is a real need for beginners AAR as new people pick up the game and yours and Sillyflower's are brilliant - in different ways - in that respect, I think there is a regular constituency of readers who are looking for something a wee bit more 'louche' and arcane.
I think you are also right about the split in the community, but the real problem is its like a lot of subtle distinctions. Its clear when you see it but its damn hard to set out clearly - I don't pretend to know the difference between astute gameplay that trips up your opponent and pushing the rule set to your own (somewhat unfair) advantage
ORIGINAL: RKhan
I have offered this to thedrillsgt but [font="Courier New"]I think[/font] we are trying to preserve to the end of the year for the experience.
while the decision of when to call a game over is always something that any pair of players need to sort out for themselves, it is often a good idea to take a game to a natural end. The big shifts in the grand campaign (summer-winter 41, spring 42, early 43 etc) need to be played to appreciate and even a game that is out of control can be useful to explore what these changes are like