Beender vs Chaos45-Soviets concede T17.

[chaos45]

Its one reason I usually don't even think about an AAR until the game reaches T6/7 as that's when you can tell how the game is going to go. As things don't get interesting usually till then if the soviet plays the delaying action game right. By T6/7 though against a german player that understands the logistics system you have to start fighting in some areas to buy time. Example Leningrad- Vladia hills area....even in the center to buy some more time for new units in the Moscow area....and in the south like in this game you have to defend Stalino and Kharkov. Which as I mentioned he has already been a threat to Stalino since T6 which to me is abit to crazy good for realistic german logistics wise.

Its also stupid that the 2 Soviet Corps by Leningrad stay frozen until T6 I think it is no matter how fast the germans are moving on the city. Still having units frozen there when the Germans at 5 hexes from the city is just daft. The game needs a better release mechanic for them than historical time since the Germans move much faster than historical if the player is good.

Used to be some similar issues with the soviet forces just east of Rovno in the south where they would stay frozen unless T1 the germans got right next to them. Now tho it doesnt matter because the germans basically encircle them T1

[EwaldvonKleist]

I have to say I always find the early turns equally interesting, especially the ideas people come up with for T1.

Agree about the frozen units in the Leningrad area thing, I suppose the developers did not have super Lvov pockets in mind when creating the timetable for unfreezing.

Curious, do you play with a HR regarding use of supplies in Axis armies?

Logistics have been nerfed massively with patch 1.11.01, I don't know when you last played the Axis but the difference between before and after can be felt immediately, very little T2 and fully T3 onwards.

Which as I mentioned he has already been a threat to Stalino since T6 which to me is abit to crazy good for realistic german logistics wise.

If you have historical logistics for the Axis in 1941 you also need something to prevent Soviet runaways. I remember that MichaelT also always stressed that point in his postings, otherwise the Soviets will fare way better than historical in 1941 assuming they run away and do not hold salient like historically around Kiev.
From a game point of view, I prefer OP Axis logistics vs. a predecided 1941 or close constraints what a Soviet player can do. It simply is hard to make a player act stalinesque.

[chaos45]

EwaldvonKleist- The problem with your thesis is the Soviet OOB is already missing millions of men from 1941, thus all the losses from those stand and fight orders are already pre-inflicted on the Soviet OOB before the game even starts. So no its not unfair that that soviets execute a run-away defense. As I posted long ago in my playthrough with pelton give soviets the hordes they should have and players probably would stand and fight but when German OOB is inflated and Soviet OOB is massively downgraded from historical the soviet player does not have those extra millions they can afford to lose and stay in the game like historical.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist


If you have historical logistics for the Axis in 1941 you also need something to prevent Soviet runaways. I remember that MichaelT also always stressed that point in his postings, otherwise the Soviets will fare way better than historical in 1941 assuming they run away and do not hold salient like historically around Kiev.
From a game point of view, I prefer OP Axis logistics vs. a predecided 1941 or close constraints what a Soviet player can do. It simply is hard to make a player act stalinesque.

I have never catered to Michael T's prevent Soviet runaway rhetoric house rule. The Germans control everything on the drive to Leningrad. Doesn't matter what the Soviet does the Germans will be in supply pretty much the whole time. Supply is a non starter here and the argument of runaway is mute here.

The drive on Moscow is a slow starter but by turn 10 the Germans can supply a sustained effort on a drive on Moscow if they so desire for the next 6 turns then again for 3 turns after the mud. 9 turns total to either surround or capture Moscow Again, in my opinion, the runaway rhetoric is overblown for Moscow.

Only in the South and Middle south is the runaway any real problem. Then again if there is a runaway strat the Germans just move up and take what was given by the Soviets. Again this is a plus for the Germans since this gives them ground without ever having to work hard for it saving on both men and material.

So in closing the run away prevention was just a tool to be used to gain favorable house rules during that time frame. I am sure you read those AAR's & figure that out. When I play Germany I love people that runaway. Makes my life twice as easy. In the case of others they don't like it because they want to be immersed in the game with combat and I can appreciate that. But the rhetoric of runaway is just overblown hype.

[beender]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain



I can understand being passive up to about turn 5. But why passive after that?

Well, because I got lazy and my previous games didn't prove to me that aggressive AF bombing by German made much difference[8|]

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: beender

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain



I can understand being passive up to about turn 5. But why passive after that?

Well, because I got lazy and my previous games didn't prove to me that aggressive AF bombing by German made much difference[8|]

I am not solely talking about AF bombing. The Germans have a set number of turns that are the happy turns. I can only say to use them or lose them Because the more you use them the longer those happy turns are. Don't use them the shorter they become. If that makes sense. (or as the title of the AAR is use your quality advantage or the Quantity advantage. Because if you do not Quantity will overwhelm you in the end. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it no matter what your quality advantage is later in the game)

[beender]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain



I am not solely talking about AF bombing. The Germans have a set number of turns that are the happy turns. I can only say to use them or lose them Because the more you use them the longer those happy turns are. Don't use them the shorter they become. If that makes sense. (or as the title of the AAR is use your quality advantage or the Quantity advantage. Because if you do not Quantity will overwhelm you in the end. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it no matter what your quality advantage is later in the game)

I'm sure you have a good point. I didn't do them due to practical issues: after all the exhausting calculations about land units one just tries to find any reason that can justify lessening his burden[:D]

Also, I was under the impression that with the NM nerf on soviet airforce it was basically rendered useless at least in 41. Apparently, not so much.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: beender

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain



I am not solely talking about AF bombing. The Germans have a set number of turns that are the happy turns. I can only say to use them or lose them Because the more you use them the longer those happy turns are. Don't use them the shorter they become. If that makes sense. (or as the title of the AAR is use your quality advantage or the Quantity advantage. Because if you do not Quantity will overwhelm you in the end. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it no matter what your quality advantage is later in the game)

I'm sure you have a good point. I didn't do them due to practical issues: after all the exhausting calculations about land units one just tries to find any reason that can justify lessening his burden[:D]

Also, I was under the impression that with the NM nerf on soviet airforce it was basically rendered useless at least in 41. Apparently, not so much.

Ah, you fell into that one. The Soviet Airforce in the right hands is not "useless" and the longer you leave it alone the deadlier it becomes.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: beender

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain



I am not solely talking about AF bombing. The Germans have a set number of turns that are the happy turns. I can only say to use them or lose them Because the more you use them the longer those happy turns are. Don't use them the shorter they become. If that makes sense. (or as the title of the AAR is use your quality advantage or the Quantity advantage. Because if you do not Quantity will overwhelm you in the end. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it no matter what your quality advantage is later in the game)

I'm sure you have a good point. I didn't do them due to practical issues: after all the exhausting calculations about land units one just tries to find any reason that can justify lessening his burden[:D]

Also, I was under the impression that with the NM nerf on soviet airforce it was basically rendered useless at least in 41. Apparently, not so much.

Ah, you fell into that one. The Soviet Airforce in the right hands is not "useless" and the longer you leave it alone the deadlier it becomes.

Here is my Airforce Turn 9 in my last game. Does this Airforce look useless?

[beender]

Actually I have better proof (or disproof) myself. Below is from T8 and it took me a dozen of seconds to grab what had just happened.

[beender]

Here is the pocket from T7. Hopefully I am not giving away too much information[:D] (as the attacking side i suppose there is more freedom).

Apparently I had a very perfect plan for encircling what estimated to be one and half Soviet army.

[beender]

Plans were perfectly executed and a nice pocket was perfectly made. No MPs wasted and just enough panzers were employed. Such a pocket is obviously impossible to break.

Or so I thought[:'(]

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: beender

Actually I have better proof (or disproof) myself. Below is from T8 and it took me a dozen of seconds to grab what had just happened.

I need not say more. I believe the proof is in the snapshots.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: beender

Plans were perfectly executed and a nice pocket was perfectly made. No MPs wasted and just enough panzers were employed. Such a pocket is obviously impossible to break.

Or so I thought[:'(]

Regiments are easily retreated.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: beender

Plans were perfectly executed and a nice pocket was perfectly made. No MPs wasted and just enough panzers were employed. Such a pocket is obviously impossible to break.

Or so I thought[:'(]

Regiments are easily retreated.

The pocket is nice but it is "not" optimal. I am not trying to be hard on you just telling you that you will improve and see the error soon enough . You will learn with experience

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: beender

Plans were perfectly executed and a nice pocket was perfectly made. No MPs wasted and just enough panzers were employed. Such a pocket is obviously impossible to break.

Or so I thought[:'(]

Regiments are easily retreated.

The pocket is nice but it is "not" optimal. I am not trying to be hard on you just telling you that you will improve and see the error soon enough . You will learn with experience

This will take 2-3 turns to clear. If you are lucky and Chaos45 doesn't open the pocket since it sounds like it was opened.

[chaos45]

So just flipped T8....depressing turn for the soviets and probably game set match.

Either some type of fuel exploit is being used or the Germans as still just to amazingly good logistically. I see 2 fully fueled panzer divisions about 5 hexes from Stalino on T8....as well a back door around the lake panzer attack got all the way to leningrad suburbs.

As I have told the patch team multiple times they have nerfed the soviets way to much and made the germans way to good...told them a year ago when I had a game with the germans having basically taken leningrad, at moscow, and almost to rostov on like Turn 8/9 seems nothing has changed when the german player understands the logistics.

[beender]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

So just flipped T8....depressing turn for the soviets and probably game set match.

Either some type of fuel exploit is being used or the Germans as still just to amazingly good logistically. I see 2 fully fueled panzer divisions about 5 hexes from Stalino on T8....as well a back door around the lake panzer attack got all the way to leningrad suburbs.

As I have told the patch team multiple times they have nerfed the soviets way to much and made the germans way to good...told them a year ago when I had a game with the germans having basically taken leningrad, at moscow, and almost to rostov on like Turn 8/9 seems nothing has changed when the german player understands the logistics.

Axis is too strong and almost guaranteed an early win, is what I have been telling people if not so convincingly. There are inherent reasons for that: WITE accurately reflects the strength of Axis and weakness of Soviet in history, but it can't do so with the weakness of Axis, because they were largely strategical oversight and misjudgement, and for us players who have hindsight they are possible if not easy to avoid.

That panzerkorps you are referring to has not engaged in battle since T1 IIRC, and has been sitting idly since T3/4. I gave them a HQBU probably last turn and they are now more than full in terms of fuel. The rail has already passed Nikolaev so not that far from where their HQ used to be anyway. Supply tricks such as Army HQ fuel dumps I no longer use, because they are too strong and not really necessary.

Since Soviet had been generally retreating until T7, I was able to rest at least half of panzers and only keep a few units in the frontline and do all the dirty works.

Below is one of those "workholics". Thankfully, they'll have a break this turn.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: beender

ORIGINAL: chaos45

So just flipped T8....depressing turn for the soviets and probably game set match.

Either some type of fuel exploit is being used or the Germans as still just to amazingly good logistically. I see 2 fully fueled panzer divisions about 5 hexes from Stalino on T8....as well a back door around the lake panzer attack got all the way to leningrad suburbs.

As I have told the patch team multiple times they have nerfed the soviets way to much and made the germans way to good...told them a year ago when I had a game with the germans having basically taken leningrad, at moscow, and almost to rostov on like Turn 8/9 seems nothing has changed when the german player understands the logistics.

Axis is too strong and almost guaranteed an early win, is what I have been telling people if not so convincingly. There are inherent reasons for that: WITE accurately reflects the strength of Axis and weakness of Soviet in history, but it can't do so with the weakness of Axis, because they were largely strategical oversight and misjudgement, and for us players who have hindsight they are possible if not easy to avoid.

That panzerkorps you are referring to has not engaged in battle since T1 IIRC, and has been sitting idly since T3/4. I gave them a HQBU probably last turn and they are now more than full in terms of fuel. The rail has already passed Nikolaev so not that far from where their HQ used to be anyway. Supply tricks such as Army HQ fuel dumps I no longer use, because they are too strong and not really necessary.

Since Soviet had been generally retreating until T7, I was able to rest at least half of panzers and only keep a few units in the frontline and do all the dirty works.

Below is one of those "workholics". Thankfully, they'll have a break this turn.

I dont know if it is a gaurentee win for the Germans but the game does have a great many things stacked against the Soviets. The game rewards the attack and the Soviets are severly curtailed without the +1 when facing 2 opponents of same level. The recent patch Imo assisted the Germans more than the Soviets. The one gem was the reduced cost of forts which I now use 50-75% of my AP each turn to build fort areas to get fortifications levels earlier than normal. Hell I build 4 on turn one at 8 ap and on turn 3 the cost is 4 ap.

[beender]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

The pocket is nice but it is "not" optimal. I am not trying to be hard on you just telling you that you will improve and see the error soon enough . You will learn with experience

you will improve

All joking aside I knew it was not watertight and perfect, but was probably the most efficient pocket. I thought Soviet could not open it without seriously risking a good number of extra troops.

Well, chaos proved me wrong[:)]