Frozen frogs! Stef78 (axis) Stelteck (Russia) - Stelteck welcome

[SparkleyTits]

Well disruption is a brilliant way to inflict extra losses so can be a great way to increase the differencials and start to drain manpower more effectively making the steamroll come sooner

Rockets are unparalled in disuprtion under the right circumstance and have a high anti soft rating so attacking lower fort levels, correct terrain type & attacking lighter elements can have some very nice effects on increased losses
They do have low range so aren't best on the defensive, their penetraion is 0 so they bad when put up against forts, their anti armour is only 25 so not great against the heavy stuff (What is though lol?)
& their truck cost is high so they definitely have disadvantages but there AOE is good and they have a lot of guns that fire so if you hold the initiative and are the one making the decisions I find they are a great weapon to have

Mix them with two ground bombing missions before an attack in an unstatic front (Translates into average lower fort levels) and the Axis will find it hard to keep themselves from degrading that precious manpower

If you aren't in the driving seat quite nicely though I find they are not as averagely powerful a weapon as you will have less options to get the best out of them.
In that case I would prefer to put my resources elsewhere

[Stelteck]

Your analysis is sound but based on the analysis of the data of the units. It is 100% theoretical. I do not think we really know practically how these parameters are used in the code.

We especially do not know at all how many german will be disrupted/damaged/killed by this support unit in an average battle. How many combat value the enemy unit will be reduced by this support units ?
It is what i mean when i said we do not know if the unit is efficient. There is no feedback about it. We have no idea if the price is justified.

(Especially as the unit compete against buying on map brigades, divisions and corps. ).

[SparkleyTits]

Well if you want actual performance data you can watch battles reports on higher numbers to get an idea on how each element performs independantly

Cross reference that with a units stats (If you see one of your units kill, disable multiple units then it is ROF or AOE etc) and you can get a rough idea
You do have to watch quite a few battles that take ages though and I know that is perhaps not your cup of tea!
Another option is just through mass repetition of natural play and testing as you go along

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
Of course I am also a member of the U2VS fan club.

I didn't hear that.

I have incriminating screenshots of you too. [:D]

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
Of course I am also a member of the U2VS fan club.

I didn't hear that.

I have incriminating screenshots of you too. [:D]

Here, have some free intel

[topeverest]

There seems to be a robust excesses built into the soviet production schema in resources, supplies, and armaments.

Is there any real effect to having saved too many armaments, unless HI is smashed in 41?

Looks like the Soviets need only about 250 -- 260

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Having too much Armement points is useless.

[chaos45]

The super massive amount of extra armaments points is due to the reduced soviet manpower replacements as well as the limits that were put in place on artillery building.

Also keep in mind this game is in mid 1945 now....so past the normal end of the war.

Stef got far more land/manpower centers than historical so this also plays a factor...you can see Stelteck is short manpower. The Soviets if they lose to much manpower in effect cannot win the game in its current form...or really for the past 3-4 major patches. The game has really become about encircling a lot of soviets in 1941 because they have to fight for some locations...then taking those locations which smashes the Soviets ability to recruit manpower for the long game and gives the Germans extra manpower from Hiwis. Its creates a huge power swing in favor of the Germans that against well matched players the Soviets cannot recover from.

With well matched players now seeing the lose of both Leningrad and Moscow in 1941 the effect is the soviet player is losing entire fronts of men over the long game they no longer have access to. Not to mention that but in the way back machine when the soviets got reduced replacements in .07 if I remember right whats left of the soviet union doesn't provide enough manpower to recover. An as I mentioned it also provides more replacements via Hiwis for the Germans meaning the soviets also have a much harder time reducing the German army to take anything back.

As many have noted over the years some things in this game cause snowballs a player cannot recover from. Its why I gave up vs Beender on T17....did I still have an army- kinda but the lack of manpower would have made a come back impossible....as the manpower generation of the soviet army is extremely weak if you lose more than historical ground. Which is almost sure to happen against a German player with a good knowledge of the game.

[topeverest]

Very helpful - thanks

ORIGINAL: chaos45

The super massive amount of extra armaments points is due to the reduced soviet manpower replacements as well as the limits that were put in place on artillery building.

Also keep in mind this game is in mid 1945 now....so past the normal end of the war.

Stef got far more land/manpower centers than historical so this also plays a factor...you can see Stelteck is short manpower. The Soviets if they lose to much manpower in effect cannot win the game in its current form...or really for the past 3-4 major patches. The game has really become about encircling a lot of soviets in 1941 because they have to fight for some locations...then taking those locations which smashes the Soviets ability to recruit manpower for the long game and gives the Germans extra manpower from Hiwis. Its creates a huge power swing in favor of the Germans that against well matched players the Soviets cannot recover from.

With well matched players now seeing the lose of both Leningrad and Moscow in 1941 the effect is the soviet player is losing entire fronts of men over the long game they no longer have access to. Not to mention that but in the way back machine when the soviets got reduced replacements in .07 if I remember right whats left of the soviet union doesn't provide enough manpower to recover. An as I mentioned it also provides more replacements via Hiwis for the Germans meaning the soviets also have a much harder time reducing the German army to take anything back.

As many have noted over the years some things in this game cause snowballs a player cannot recover from. Its why I gave up vs Beender on T17....did I still have an army- kinda but the lack of manpower would have made a come back impossible....as the manpower generation of the soviet army is extremely weak if you lose more than historical ground. Which is almost sure to happen against a German player with a good knowledge of the game.

[M60A3TTS]

Here I will disagree with Chaos that the Soviets don't get enough manpower in the narrow sense that in this game an army of 8 million plus is hardly small. No, in my view the issue can be seen in this example.



I could use a number of 4-letter words to describe what this represents, but as they say- a picture is worth a thousand words. Unless this conflict solely involved foam pellet guns, somebody needed to die here on the German side. If the combat engine regularly generates these no/low loss fantasy results, the Soviet players in a battle of equals are going to struggle as the game exists today. The caps put in place do what they were designed to do, in keeping the Red Army a manageable size, but the Axis really don't have similar constraints. I could argue that any number of these 1942 German replacement units might never have been sent to the east, had not the heavy casualties necessitated the moves after the winter of 1941-42.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Here I will disagree with Chaos that the Soviets don't get enough manpower in the narrow sense that in this game an army of 8 million plus is hardly small. No, in my view the issue can be seen in this example.



I could use a number of 4-letter words to describe what this represents, but as they say- a picture is worth a thousand words. Unless this conflict solely involved foam pellet guns, somebody needed to die here on the German side. If the combat engine regularly generates these no/low loss fantasy results, the Soviet players in a battle of equals are going to struggle as the game exists today. The caps put in place do what they were designed to do, in keeping the Red Army a manageable size, but the Axis really don't have similar constraints. I could argue that any number of these 1942 German replacement units might never have been sent to the east, had not the heavy casualties necessitated the moves after the winter of 1941-42.

Perfect example of German PAnzers as Supermen. This really has to be fixed and M60 brings up an excellent point. I have been alone in the dark shouting for so long this that it hurts.

[Stelteck]

I have an interesting screen to show you :

It is a typical rifle corps. This rifle corps have been created one year ago, stay a lot in refit, then was sent to serve as guarrison against the Fins.

These rifle corps did not saw combat as i gave up Leningrad to go to Germany.
You can see that their rifle squads are at 80% near perfect with the current system.

But, i had huge problem to fill them with artillery, AT guns and all heavy equipment, despite having unlimited armament points !!!!



All my rifle corps have the similar heavy equipment problems. Of course, when the rifle corps fought a lot, he will have low rifle squads too due to looses. But the above rifle corps is fresh from refit.

It looks like my production of guns cannot keep with the need of all my modern rifle corps and the looses despite i have enough Arm points.

[chaos45]

Good information and points that the limitations put on artillery/heavy weapons may have been set abit to low or need to increase as the war goes on like most of the other factory systems.

[M60A3TTS]

You don't have the manpower, Stelteck. Look at your manpower level on the Prod screen. 45.6k available which will never go to zero. Arms have to be married to manpower to produce something. You have too many units with 206 rifle corps and all these cav corps.

[chaos45]

IDK if its manpower or not hard to tell....as you can see his support wpn % fill is much lower than his rifle squad fill %

I guess just depends on how Morveal set up the priority of manpower fill to equipment.

Seems weird that artillery is only a 35% fill and everything else around 50%+

[EwaldvonKleist]

@topeverest:
There is no disadvantage of evacuating too much industry, except that the rail capacity at a critical time could have used for something better, for example evacuating more special factories (Aircraft, AFV) to reduce damage to factories or to use the rail for tactical and strategical rail movement, which can help to increase the strength of your army, leading to fewer losses and more terrain held. One can view it as an indirect mean to evacuate manpower factories.

@M60: What were the settings for your test (morale, exp, fatigue, damaged elements, roll pass chance etc.)? In this AAR one usually sees battle of German untis taking significant losses when attacking Soviet rifle corps, even when they have just arrived in their hex and possess low fortification values, see this battle as an example: https://i.imgur.com/aVnncu2.jpg

Re the U2VS, historically Stalin let his secret police repeatedly make up accusations against elements of the Soviet country, be it single people, organisations, religions, relatives of an already convicted person, ethnics or supporters of a certain politics. As an example, he at one time purged the so called industry party, said to be a secret organisation of engineers and managers in the industry to overthrow the gouvernement.

Here it might be time to begin a purge against the U2VS party, for at least 50% (what do you think chaos?) are infeste by the belief in biplanes.

@chaos: The Soviet union is definitely able to use the amount of produced equipment. An AAR in a German wargaming forum (http://www.si-games.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29083) sees the Soviet player having a huge manpower production and nearly zero losses to industry (like 360 arms), still his armaments pool as of late 1943 is at 700k, because he took very high losses and had the manpower to use the armaments.

The lack of artillery can have different roots. As armaments are plenty here, it could be
-the engine prefers to build other elements over artillery, maybe preferring ground elements with high CV/manpower in case of a manpower shortage
-the items are refilled more or less with equal priority, but artillery has higher loss or attrition rates (unlikely)
-the built limit causes an army wide limit on most categories of artillery, guns and mortars
-other reasons I have no idea about

Is there any way to view the built limits for artillery in-game? Need to have a look at the editor.

Edit: The editor shows the information, even though I have no idea yet what "default (xx%) mean. There is at least one Soviet AT gun that has no build limit (the one shown on the screenshot) with production from 1942 to 1945, as such I do not think the lack of AT guns in the rifle corps can be a result of production limitations.

[STEF78]

A view of the evolution of the OOB in the late war. I don't receive any reinforcement since mid april and I loose at least one 1 german inf div per week.

Inf units and artillery are melting while air war isn't enough intense to attrit units.

And russian AFV suffer less than german ones



and a view of the recovery of destroyed units, it's very slow. I know I should disband them but they have ZOC's and it can be useful againt tank breakthrough

[chaos45]

ya the experience issue soviet players have been talking about is making your rebuilding units worthless. It just doesn't affect the Axis player until they lose a couple corps really.

It basically means you need 6+ months to get a destroyed unit trained. Its why soviet units in 1941 aren't gaining more than 1 CV unless they started on the map and survived T1 or are reinforcements sent from the Far east.

If your willing to lose the manpower you can attack or defend with them where they will be slaughtered due to the low EXP rating but you might gain more than 1 exp per turn lol....least that's the story they tell the soviets players.

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: chaos45
.../...If your willing to lose the manpower you can attack or defend with them where they will be slaughtered due to the low EXP rating but you might gain more than 1 exp per turn lol....least that's the story they tell the soviets players.

[:)] I'm short of 1,2M men in order to fill my german OOB.... I will try to prevent any major slaughter ...

[Stelteck]

ORIGINAL: STEF78
[:)] I'm short of 1,2M men in order to fill my german OOB....

I'am short of 3.8M [:D]

[STEF78]

Turn 212, 5th july 1945

The line around the Niemen is holding despite heavy attacks.
But the area south of Brest Litovsk is looking ugly...



I commit all what is available South of Pripyat to counterattack. note for HLYA, have a look at the losses...



Near the Black sea, some units are surrounded but get an extra week of life.



And the losses, almost 100k men and 400 "AFV" lost...