The Great Betrayal!

[lastkozak]

(to be read with a Russian Accent)

Axis: Bitburgerdraft
Soviet: lastkozak


June 22, 1941
Radio Moscow

Important message from the Great Leader of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; which all comrades will listen to intently!

We have been betrayed! Less than a few hours after the German representative, had insisted that all previous agreements of peace, between the Nation of Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics will continue, the German military stormed across the peaceful border of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. This is a Great Betrayal, but we have been informed that our military is up for the job, and we will stand firm on our borders, and defend the proletariat homeland with our last breath if need be!

The Great Soviet Leader is confident that every member of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics will contribute everything they have to defending our Soviet Republic, due to his recent policies for motivating our nation!

Finally an allegorical link, for my opponent, and any others who would dare violate the peaceful existence of our Great Proletariat Soviet Republic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRAI9_MkmBM

[lastkozak]

Beginning of Soviet Turn 1.

Air losses: Axis 70; Soviet 4337! Ouch! The Germans only historically totaled about 1100! Is that a bug or just good shooting? Which should result in fewer bombers for ground support.

Casualties: Axis 12,172; Soviet 306,872, Vehicles 4888, Units destroyed 25+5 disbanded.

[lastkozak]

Army Group Centre

[lastkozak]

Army Group South

[lastkozak]

There are different approaches to how the German's carry out their first turn. Each tells something about the player, and thus can assist the Soviet player in determining what they may be able to expect; a cautious player? versus an aggressive player.

1) The Germans can create the pockets, and then let them rot til the next turn, thus suffering fewer casualties when one attacks them the next turn. The draw back is a delay in getting one's infantry deeper into the USSR. The advantage is fewer German casualties, and I believe a higher probability of whole units surrendering; perhaps somebody could clarify that?
2) The other option is surround them and then beat them hard, but probably suffering more German casualties.

The other option the German players can carry out, is a complete seal around the pocket; every hex has a unit, although I am unsure how much more that helps the Germans, as I attempted that agaisnt the Computer when I first got the game.

I thus will assess his approach to the first few turns, to help me determine the ultimate defense, for "the Great People of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics!"

[EwaldvonKleist]

Your opponent has left you more stuff than usual to play with in the north.
Byalystock and Lvov pockets seem to be not tight.
Try to move the routed units, which cant be railed out, to the most likely axis of advance. On this way the Panzers will push them into safety on T2.
If you resist the temptation to defend too far forward during the early turns, you should be fine.
Your AAR style allows live discussions but of course seeing the Soviet positions too is nice for the readers
Good luck!

[lastkozak]

I posted this early, have not yet done my turn. Truth be told, the designers should add a feature so that one can take a pic of the screen but both sides are seen in FOW, thus nobody gains an advantage, and people on the forum can see what the Germans can see of the soviets, and what the soviets can see of the Germans.

The last thing I want is for my opponent to see what is around, although so early in the game even a not so experienced player would know.

Perhaps as the game moves forward, I can post showing more details, providing what I am posting has already happened, and any knowledge is not beneficial to my opponent.

The Northern pockets are deep however, thus getting out is not possible, but I will attempt to use the units that are destined for death, to be a pain for the Germans.

There are two options a soviet player can do; 1) move close to the Germans to force them to use up movement, or carrying out a hasty attack. 2) Move to the best positions, so that they can inflict more casualties on the Germans when they are attacked. 3) there is also sometimes the "wandering minstrels" I call them, when you get one unit heading west and damaging rails bc your opponent was not paying attention!

[lastkozak]

And the Trash talk and boasting begins!

Bitburgerdraft said, "I am prepared to make my last stand in Berlin if needed, have done it before,..."


lastkozak said, "Your last stand will be Berlin, the question is, in what year? And how much of the German Army will be pocketed in the USSR at the time?"

"BTW we have some girls in Moscow your troops will like, they set off amazing fireworks! By coincidence they are all called Katushka!"

[EwaldvonKleist]

The alternative is to put a delay in the aar. Both ways have their pros and cons of course.
Re your points:
Early on, the Germans have full MP, ok-ish to good C&C, full ammo etc., while you have low TOEs, not enough ammo and bad C&C. Accepting a fight under those circumstances can cause high losses. Have a look at the 8 player AAR, especially the Northern Front. I tried to make a stand there early on and lost units needlessly (though it is for sure not the worst example for this tactic).

1) Swarming the Germans can lead to high losses. Better let them come to you in the early turns, not reverse.
2) In 1941 you cannot cause decisive losses to the Germans. Its all about keeping terrain, industry and reducing the own losses.
3) That is a job for units which are lost anyway and low TOE throw away cavalry.

[lastkozak]

I was talking about the units that are pocketed! Not overall strategy!

If the units are destined for death camps or die in battle, then;

1) move them close to German units that you wish to delay, every point of their movement you can force them to unnecessarily spend, prevents them from getting deeper into your territory.

2) Move them to the best possible defensive position within the pocket, thus forcing the Germans to attack and though the soviets will lose, the Germans will take more casualties attacking a pocketed unit that is in a good defensive position, rather than moving them to a poor defensive position, where they are easier to kill.

3)If you can move a pocketed unit through the line and head west, do it (wandering minstrels)!The worst thing is they die, but the Germans need to hold a unit back, or sacrifice security divisions, which do not fight well. You may be able to rip up some rail, which probably won't matter much, but sometimes the Germans forget they are there!

Fatigue is hard to eliminate, thus every little bit you can add to a German unit's fatigue, the better! Most importantly the Germans only have so many turns, anything to delay or hold a German Unit back, that is one turn the unit won't be at the front. If you can do this at 3 or 4 places on the board, that is 1 corps of Germans for 1 turn that are not at the front, and 1 turn more soviets have to kill Romanians!

Every player has been in the situation, where they are 1 unit or 1 movement point short of a final attack, or lose an attack because you needed one more division. When Mud is approaching that could be an important hex!

This is my thinking.

[EwaldvonKleist]

In case of pocketed units I vote for 3) if an opportunity arises and for 2) in all other cases.
1) often means that you put them in clear/light woods hexagons and then they fall to a hasty attack. In addition, by moving adjacent to the enemy you make the moves he should do.
2) is good, especially cities with "a lot"* of supplies are useful, because they will "allot" them to the units inside the pocket. Swamp hexagons are nice too.
3) is even better but requires cooperation of your opponent in most cases.
*Thanks HLYA

[piotrmx]

Soviets lost 1100 planes the first day. There are 4 days in T1. Loses in the next was such big in 1941.
And you should lose 5000000 men till the end of 1941.

[lastkozak]

Yep, forgot the turn was 4 days!

I do not think I will need 5,000,000 dead by end of 1941 to stop the Panzers. It only takes about 3.5 Million to gum up enough of the treads on the Panzers!

But if it takes 5 M, we have lots of comrades in Siberia willing to volunteer for relocation to a more sedentary lifestyle, shall we say!

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: lastkozak

It only takes about 3.5 Million to gum up enough of the treads on the Panzers!

Ya, only took (1) German to absolutely ruin a Soviet tank ;-P

[lastkozak]

Well, I will leave it to my opponent to post the front at the beginning of his turn 2. (Took me 12 hours to finish my Turn 1; lots to think about and reflect on).

His forward Panzers in the south turned out to be 2 divisions, and 6 regiments. Gave me a chance to cut his supply path at two points. I ran back as far as I could without giving up any decent defensible terrain. Many players disband all the Forts in the Stalin line, but presently they serve a purpose.

It appears that he has split the Panzers from Panzer Group 3, between the North, Centre and South (by what proportions I am not sure yet). If this is true, then it will keep me busy on all fronts; unfortunately I am no closer to determining what his priority objectives are (Leningrad? Moscow? Kharkov?). May have to be ready on each front, to Transfer a couple Armies to where they will be needed.

Will keep Zhukov ready for such a possibility.

[:-]Surprise attacks! Oh me, oh my! Bad Nazis, very very bad![:-]

[Crackaces]

Fatigue is hard to eliminate, thus every little bit you can add to a German unit's fatigue, the better! Most importantly the Germans only have so many turns, anything to delay or hold a German Unit back..

I would disagree here. As a newbie German fanboy, I might say Fatigue in this game is pretty easy to recover. It can be a simple matter of not using all the MP's and parking not next to the enemy recovers plenty. What will soon run out is fuel especially for the South. The supply lines will stretch. Counting the hexes to supply for every panzer division and fronting up or making them travel through God forsaken countryside of swamps will put more pressure on supplies (and fuel)

His forward Panzers in the south turned out to be 2 divisions, and 6 regiments ...

AGC has in particular has overloaded HQ that need divisions redistributed to HQ's with slots. The German commander has optimized a bit.
The 2x3 game sent 7th and 20th to AGN to join XXXXI and LVI ..this Pz divisions were instrumental to progress ..

[lastkozak]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Fatigue is hard to eliminate, thus every little bit you can add to a German unit's fatigue, the better! Most importantly the Germans only have so many turns, anything to delay or hold a German Unit back..

I would disagree here. As a newbie German fanboy, I might say Fatigue in this game is pretty easy to recover. It can be a simple matter of not using all the MP's and parking not next to the enemy recovers plenty. What will soon run out is fuel especially for the South. The supply lines will stretch. Counting the hexes to supply for every panzer division and fronting up or making them travel through God forsaken countryside of swamps will put more pressure on supplies (and fuel)

Well that is exactly my point, to recover fatigue one has to not use the unit, thus they are left behind, and that is one turn less that the Panzer divisions don't attack and don't take ground. Soviets can refit a lot of men in one turn, and build more entrenchments.

My comments about fatigue had to do with pocketed units; if they are going to die, how does one make sure their sacrifice helps the cause of the defense? Further if the Germans are trying to go for Moscow via the north, there are few hexes that would allow supply to be drawn through easily, plugging these up with forts and entrenchments is a must, therefore a delay of a couple panzer divisions to recover fatigue, is perfect for tightening up these few spots.

A responsible German player, would not allow themselves to drive so deep as to risk having no supplies, and would be wary of sending Panzers into swamp and or forest. Further, one cannot guarantee that the German player is going to take their Panzers into formidable terrain. (that is why it is important to read your opponent and assess what kind of player they are; wreckless? or tenacious?).

Early in the game getting to Leningrad fast is important if you want to take it. What undermines the Germans when they go for Leningrad? Supplies? Or fatigue? Any Soviet player would love the Germans to sit back and do nothing in the Leningrad area for a turn to recover fatigue.

[thedoctorking]

One thing Twigster and I did in our aborted AAR was delay posting until the opponent had taken their next turn. So your view of your opponent's positions was at least a turn out of date. Just a thought. You might even delay by a couple of turns as I believe Tyronec/Grognard are doing.

[lastkozak]

Yes, I am aware of that technique, but even so, one usually wants to be far enough a head, that your opponent cannot obtain any intelligence from your post of your front line. (Show your 1941 turns, when your opponent is dealing with his 1942 spring offensive, is ideal).

I can understand forum users wanting to see what you are planning or possible options, but again, if they see them so does your German Opponent. Maybe people should instead focus on the intrigue and suspense of not knowing any more than the opponent does.

If I have an Army of guard sitting in a sector four turns ago, the Germans are forever going to be thinking, "where is that Guard Army now", and when they see a FOW that indicates an Army concentration, they know where it probably is, and how close it is to be able to interrupt their plan.

(I would like to believe that everybody is a good sport, but lets face it, there would not have been so much design effort going into cheating prevention, if it did not happen.)

I wonder if there is someway to have a secondary password system for each AAR, so that the two players cannot see the others' AAR, but everybody else can.

I thus prefer to edit out everything that is not adjacent to German units, or is not seen on FOW.

[thedoctorking]

Some AAR's are "do not enter" for the other side.

I play a bunch of boardgames where there is no fog of war at all, so I am comfortable with my opponent being able to see my guys.