Panzer Division = SUPER MAN

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Nada

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Losses that Panzer divisions take is laughable. No serious. It is down right ridiculous how few losses they take. Numerous occasions I will see hundreds (sometimes 1,000's) of casualties in men and equipment on the Soviet side to see 1 tank damaged IF THAT. Really? I'm like WTF. I would chalk it up as a bad roll of the dice but I'm seeing it over and over and over again. Such Minuscule loses makes Hitler so happy he doesn't need to take Viagra for that week.

You just routed one ... they lost 11 AFV total (damaged and destroyed) I admit I would expect more losses given the attack. However 147 AFV engaged. Given IRL the battle of Slominsk 1941 (a german victory) about 1600 AFV and losses of 212 .. seems pretty appropriate ratios ? Maybe another 10 AFV would be more in line with a better dice roll?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

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[Dinglir]

I would have assumed that the Germans just kept thier distance from the attacking Soviets in 1941, leading to very low AFV casualties.

It would go something like this.

Soviets attacking in the distance. Fire as they approach. When they are almost close enough to start doing some damage, back the vehicle up half a kilometer and repeat the process once more.

Soviet gun optics were really bad, so artillery and tanks were unlikely to do much damage either.

The aircraft used RS-82 rockets that were absolutely horrible at hitting their targets.

[RforRush]

Tanks were used for breakthrough, not for defense. They couldn't just kept distance, their own guns were almost useless on long ranges.

[Stelteck]

Do not forget it is a game [;)]

So where damage come from in this game ?

- Combat phase.
- Retreat attrition.
- Front line attrition.

Combat phase : The soviet troops perform quite poorly during this phase at start due to low XP and low amount of heavy equipment. They do not have a lot of gun, and they do not fire and hit the ennemy very often.

Retreat attrition : Will affect german only with successfull soviet attack, so not very often. This can do little damage (retreat with a clear line of retreat with no ennemy units) to heavy damage. (Retreat though multiple hex due to overstacking and with lots of ennemy zone of control).

Front line attrition : will affect german if they are close to a soviet troops at the beginning of the german turn. Of course the soviet will loose more as soviet have low xp&morale compared to the german.
Still damaged german tank have more chance to be destroyed than most soviet ones due to the better reliability of the soviet tanks. Also if you keep a unit in contact with the ennemy, they will have issue to repair it.

In my current game i'am trying to predict ennemy looses in battle and it is quite consistent. There is only one point i think there is a problem, it is in retreat attrition:
If i rout an ennemy unit by encercling it and crushing it in the same turn (so they have nowhere to retreat and rout out of the pocket), the damage done is similar to the damage done to a unit that retreat easily of one hex though a clear path. Really light damage.
It is quite strange and there may be a bug.

So there is this issue, but otherwise the damage is quite consistent.

Of course after that, we can discuss if there is enough damage here or too much here. For example personnaly i would love having more damage and more importance in the combat phase, because the combat phase is quite fun, but it is only my personnal opinion.

[Crackaces]

It would be interesting to see the main screen losses report vs the combat report .. I would wage there are significant additional losses to a routed PzXX

[56ajax]

Gee, tell me something I don't know.

Now when I read the history books, at the end of the blizzard many of the panzer divisions had less than 10 serviceable tanks. You don't get that in this game. That is why the Axis is able to mount an offensive in the first week (Snow) of March, instead of May/June.

Perhaps it is how the game allocates casualties and replacements ie formulas or algorithms. For instance, if a Pz div loses 5% per turn for 20 weeks then in theory it has lost 100% but perhaps much of that will have been replaced. If the same div loses nothing for 18 weeks and then 50% per turn for 2 weeks it will be an empty shell,just like in the history books.

[Denniss]

AFAIR these Panzer divs were constantly in action during Winter 41/42 to plug holes in the front lines and counterattacks.
If they have time to rest and refit you'll see them at good strength for 42 Offensives.

[decourcy2]

And again we are seeing German AFV strength in Russia of 8,000-12,000 in AARs in '43. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I am fine now. If an Axis fan boi comes on and says 'well, the German players are not as dumb as Hitler, so of course they are doing better.' I then punch Axis fan boi. And point out that most Soviet players are not making the bone headed moves that Stalin made either.

[Denniss]

Losses depend on gameplay. This is a fact. If one is overly aggressive, attacking even in unfavorable positions/terrain one may get high losses.
With dumb orders/errors like in Stalingrad you'll get horrendous losses.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Nada

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Losses depend on gameplay. This is a fact. If one is overly aggressive, attacking even in unfavorable positions/terrain one may get high losses.
With dumb orders/errors like in Stalingrad you'll get horrendous losses.

Denniss

I “totally” disagree with your statement here. In the current rendition patch wise of WITE 1.0 the loses sustained to and of the panzer division along with loses given by said panzer division is out of porportion no matter how you play WITE. Im sorry but the hasty generalization blanketing this over is incorrect. Im 100% sure the community can and I can provide an avalanche of screenshots showing just how “super” these panzer divisions are.

Sorry for being blatant outright here but there is no sugar coating this.

I think the problem lies that devices engage randomly, which I propose engagements in reality are not so random. For example, the battle of Brody the German tanks are leading the charge and are initially quite exposed and get whacked at Dubno until Soviet leadership causes chaos. This will never happen in this game. Also the randomness of combat makes Russian antitank units not worth the price of admission when it fact antitank units absorb additional MP’s (tanks have to stop and fight or go around) and tanks become targets if they are leading the charge. I liked this from the cardboard version of WITE .Thus a fundamental problem if players compare historical results. (I am a German fanboy BTW)

[Stelteck]

From my multiplayer game (i'am in mid 1944), i find very hard to destroy german tanks. There is no way i can attrit the massive german tank production.
it is pointless.

[elloboloco]

I don't believe there is a way to 'attrit' or 'wear down' the German panzer divisions as happened during the actual campaign as they seem to suffer too few losses. I think the situation is even worse using the adjusted or actual combat values option.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

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[chaos45]

you really cant wear down any specific german divisins in this game until you run the entire army out of replacements.......as to tanks without encirclements you will never destroy many german tanks.

Things you can do as the Soviets is keep the panzers Zoc'd as much as possible to increase fatigue and attrition losses, force them to retreat through Zoc's and multiple hexes, over rivers an such.

As to the attrition part...IDK anymore really as soviet replacements have been so degraded attrition prolly works more for Germans than Soviets at least until 1943...if you can stand the losses as the soviets tho the more germans u keep zoc'd the more attrition you cause and it adds up over the long game.

[SparkleyTits]

You can destroy a number of tanks by using bad weather and bodies to your advantage

Although I find it only a temporary and situational advantage which takes the shiny paint off of the AFV numbers for a short time after winter has stopped until Axis refits and rests

It can buy you a little time but not something you can use to wear down and attrition armour TOE's indefinitely and even this advantage is with the smaller and unreliable models no point in even contemplating the bigger stuff like a tiger etc those monsters are all but invincible from what I can tell so far

[HardLuckYetAgain]

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[HardLuckYetAgain]

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