Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running!

[deMangler]

ORIGINAL: Uemon

TURN TIMES
TURN TIMES
TURN TIMES
!!!!!!!!!!

Game abysmal waiting times is one major issue for me, and the main reason i dont play this game even more.

This is also the main reason for my [s]random gibberings[/s] postings so much here!

[Journier]

Game turn times on a medium size map or above is terrible with an active presence of AI's strewn across planet. I love this game, and I would play it far more if I could actually play the game instead of waiting for the end of turn for 4+ minutes on larger maps.

Not bad on small map, but I can finish small maps in under 150 turns.

Edit-

I also want to say the turn times have to be like 60% faster compared to launch day. So much progress has been made. Im very impressed by the 1 man show.

[Bleek]

Survey done.

I've given feedback on turn times before, my main point was 'give us something to do' during the turn processing. This would take our mind off the length. Or fill in some blanks with updates from the known world, a bit like a news feed - you could gamify this too. The better your spy network and/or relations, the more info you get to see .

Easier said than done I know, but it might easier than trying to reduce turn times themselves!

[BlueTemplar]

Yeah, for instance detailed battle reports, just like during our turn !

[Bleek]

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Yeah, for instance detailed battle reports, just like during our turn !

Yep, I suggested being able to review previous turn reports and battles.

That data is already there, no additional processing burden required.

[deMangler]

ORIGINAL: Bleek

Survey done.

I've given feedback on turn times before, my main point was 'give us something to do' during the turn processing. This would take our mind off the length. Or fill in some blanks with updates from the known world, a bit like a news feed - you could gamify this too. The better your spy network and/or relations, the more info you get to see .

Easier said than done I know, but it might easier than trying to reduce turn times themselves!

Great idea. I was not really emphasising reduction in turn times because there could be a risk of unintended side-effects when I get round it by loading up the previous save in another instance and checking things a bit deeper.
However - this idea is great. Some Simple interactive reports thing that takes almost no cpu. Or something would be better for me than prioritising reduced turn times.

[Bleek]

Let's face it, reducing turn times is diminishing returns for Vic.

Filling that void with something else seems a much more attractive solution. 👍

[Uemon]

Thats not really a good idea. The main reason why excessive turn times are bad is because they disrupt the gameplay flow. One minute youre fully engaged making plans for that turn and future turns, and then you spend 10 minutes waiting. If you keep staring at the screen you will get bored (which is not a good thing for a video game to do) and if you alt tab (even for a shorter period of time) you attention will shift from game to whatever it is you tabbed to, be it youtube or whatever.

If Vic adds something for you to click on the screen while turn is being calculated, thats basically trying to compete with other tabbed out things for your attention, and while i do respect Vic, i dont think he can compete with youtube or netflix.

So yeah, even if working on turn times has diminishing effect, thats still the best way to get it done, otherwise you will lose the player attention. Thats not a problem for some of you, because you are niche players who are willing to wait however many minutes, but if this game is ever going to reach people who are not niche players (like myself, i do love turn based games, but i will not sit and wait 5 minutes between turns, its just not fun) its not really good enough.

I said this elsewhere already, but i like this game so much, that in order to be able to play it in an acceptable way i would be willing to play a lobotomized version of it. Find out what is caused the turn times to be so long and just cut it, as sad as that sounds. Id rather play the game with even worse AI, than not play it at all. (obviously im talking about a separate game mode, last think i would want to do is take anything from anyone that they enjoy)

[BlueTemplar]

It's not *so* much an issue if "whatever you tabbed to" is the manual ! [;)] (Or even any other SE content...)

As Bleek said, this is about diminishing returns.

You're just never going to get turn times in the minutes in the mid-late game on large worlds with lots of regimes !
You would probably need to have a completely different game, without concentric bonuses nor units being cut off being an issue.
Heck, even games without these features suffer from the same issue : consider Space Empires 5 or Heroes of Might and Magic 5 !

Consider the latest beta patch :

If your turn times were ~10 minutes, now they're ~8 minutes... this is still too long to be waiting for the AI to move without doing anything else !

However, in smaller games I expect a -20% difference to feel much more significant : now instead of ~60 seconds, you're only waiting ~48 !

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

It's not *so* much an issue if "whatever you tabbed to" is the manual ! [;)] (Or even any other SE content...)

As Bleek said, this is about diminishing returns.

You're just never going to get turn times in the minutes in the mid-late game on large worlds with lots of regimes !
You would probably need to have a completely different game, without concentric bonuses nor units being cut off being an issue.
Heck, even games without these features suffer from the same issue : consider Space Empires 5 or Heroes of Might and Magic 5 !

Consider the latest beta patch :

If your turn times were ~10 minutes, now they're ~8 minutes... this is still too long to be waiting for the AI to move without doing anything else !

However, in smaller games I expect a -20% difference to feel much more significant : now instead of ~60 seconds, you're only waiting ~48 !

I think it is time for the Speed Rant to be quoted

https://ericlippert.com/2012/12/17/performance-rant/
Particulary part 4 applies here.

[Vic]

I am trying what I can and will continue to try to reduce the times.

However please do keep in mind that before release I debated this and decided NOT to block the large planets and high AI counts. (which especially in combination cause the huge turn times)

My reasoning was that people who really like a faster turn-around would just have to play on small planets or medium planets with less major AIs.

Alas... I could have predicted that people want bigger planets with many major AIs and a fast AI

Not mocking anybody here. Just explaining my logic.

So as I said i'll keep trying to nudge out some speed advantages in the coming months, but do not expect something super huge.

best wishes,
Vic

[deMangler]

ORIGINAL: Vic

I am trying what I can and will continue to try to reduce the times.

However please do keep in mind that before release I debated this and decided NOT to block the large planets and high AI counts. (which especially in combination cause the huge turn times)

My reasoning was that people who really like a faster turn-around would just have to play on small planets or medium planets with less major AIs.

Alas... I could have predicted that people want bigger planets with many major AIs and a fast AI

Not mocking anybody here. Just explaining my logic.

So as I said i'll keep trying to nudge out some speed advantages in the coming months, but do not expect something super huge.

best wishes,
Vic

I would have done the same. Especially as the world is full of sacrifices to the shallow these days.
Give me huge maps and slow AI vs small maps and fast AI any day. I only play small-normal because I am still learning the game, and I actually love the way each restart is interesting.

[eddieballgame]

Vic, whatever you are doing...keep it up.
Your game is superb as is.
Personally, the times per the large planets is not an issue for me & would prefer you spend your valuable 'SE' time on more content...not that it needs it. [:)]

[LORDPrometheus]

As much as I think cutting down turn times would be great as many others have stated the design of the game will never allow lightning fast AI turns. There is simply too much complexity for that. I would rather have gradual improvements in logic that lead to improvements in turn times along with new content than have Vic spend months fighting a losing battle and delay new gameplay

[deMangler]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

It's not *so* much an issue if "whatever you tabbed to" is the manual ! [;)] (Or even any other SE content...)

As Bleek said, this is about diminishing returns.

You're just never going to get turn times in the minutes in the mid-late game on large worlds with lots of regimes !
You would probably need to have a completely different game, without concentric bonuses nor units being cut off being an issue.
Heck, even games without these features suffer from the same issue : consider Space Empires 5 or Heroes of Might and Magic 5 !

Consider the latest beta patch :

If your turn times were ~10 minutes, now they're ~8 minutes... this is still too long to be waiting for the AI to move without doing anything else !

However, in smaller games I expect a -20% difference to feel much more significant : now instead of ~60 seconds, you're only waiting ~48 !

I think it is time for the Speed Rant to be quoted

https://ericlippert.com/2012/12/17/performance-rant/
Particulary part 4 applies here.

I haven't read that for years!
yes!

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Vic

I am trying what I can and will continue to try to reduce the times.

However please do keep in mind that before release I debated this and decided NOT to block the large planets and high AI counts. (which especially in combination cause the huge turn times)

My reasoning was that people who really like a faster turn-around would just have to play on small planets or medium planets with less major AIs.

Alas... I could have predicted that people want bigger planets with many major AIs and a fast AI

Not mocking anybody here. Just explaining my logic.

So as I said i'll keep trying to nudge out some speed advantages in the coming months, but do not expect something super huge.

best wishes,
Vic

If you as a developer add a option to a game, you take on a responsibility for it to work well.
If you make a Space Sim with a Galaxy Size of X Stars, you are responsible for Galaxy Size X to have acceptable turn times.
If you allow Y major regimes on the Planets of size X, you are responsible for those AI to not take too long a time.
Adding Options creates a obligation of performance. The bigger you allow the planets to be, the more AI you allow them to have - the more time you have to invest into performance.

I think you can get out of that - just hide those options behind a checkbox like "Experimental Options". That way everyone that chooses to play that way, knows what he is setting himself up for.

[LuckyLooser]

As a developer myself I can ertainly understand your dilemma. If you offer a customer something they always want it to be bigger AND faster AND more complex AND more pretty AND cheaper. If it is any consolation: you can find the exactly same discussion in about any strategy game forum there is.

Nothing you can do about their wishes (which of course each one of them is to a degree understandable)

Only easy way out is to add a warning message when using large planets. E.g. "With large planets turn times can exceed comfortable limits. Please use medium size plaents in case long turn times are an issue for you." which the user has to confirm. Can't blame you for something he chose to accept.

I very much appreciate the approach you chose - I rather have the option to play larger planets (although I never use it because I am turn time sensitive) than not having the option at all. Everybody enjoys the game different ways which is absolutely fine.

Another way out of the dilemma might be to make all last turns reports available for reading in the loading screen so people have something to do in between. 10 minutes pass quickly if you go to the bottom of those reports

[Uemon]

Everything else aside, i do appreciate any amount of effort and result that speeds the game up. It makes a difference.

[Maerchen]

Regarding turn times:

I would like an estimated turn time during planet generation.

Like: medium size planet: 8min+. Biological life: +5min. Intelligent alien life: +5min. Postapocalypse: each major adds 3 min, each minor adds 1 min.

Medium size planet with alien intelligence, 4 major, 17 minor = 8+5+5+4*3+17= 42 min estimated turn time.

[BlueTemplar]

I'm not sure that you understand the difficulty of what you're asking for...

(Though maybe some vague warning would be nice about the options that tend to dramatically increase AI turn times - AFAIK it's mostly larger sized planets and Survival Stress ?)