Dunkirk details...

[Footslogger]

According to this video, it was the French that saved the British.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6C5P-AYGdY

[wdolson]

They did contribute. At the end there were quite a few French soldiers who abandoned their posts and ran for the nearest boat. I believe most of them were sent back to France soon after arriving in England to help the defense of the more southerly France.

I think the key mistake the Germans made was thinking like a continental power, which they were. For a continental power, being backed up against the sea is essentially surrounded. For a naval power, which is what the UK was, having your army backed up against the sea is an opportunity. The Germans didn't really grasp until it was too late that the British had successfully extracted most of their army from the beaches.

The French forces in the pocket did play a part in holding off the German army which was not too enthusiastic about reducing the pocket until other goals had been captured and the supply lines stabilized. The fact the French were there made it tougher for the Germans to crush the pocket.

Bill

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

According to this video, it was the French that saved the British.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6C5P-AYGdY

Nice French propaganda piece. While they certainly did hold the line at Dunkirk, the "spin" is a bit much. Like the statement that "three elite German Armored Divisions were led by Erwin Rommel". I'm sure the General Staff would have been curious how a Division Commander suddenly became a Corps Commander without their knowledge.

[Numdydar]

Maybe they were helping prep him for his promotion to make them look good after france's surrender [:D]

[warspite1]

Oh dear.....

Yes, if you read between the lines it’s all quite simple:

French = heroic and brave
British = cowardly backstabbers.

What a shame. The truth of course is never that simple. Did the French provide the bulk of the rear-guard that enabled so many Allied troops to escape? Yes. Was their action heroic and to be applauded and honoured? Yes.
But as I said, things are not that simple.

First and foremost, it must be remembered that the French and British were two separate countries with centuries of enmity and that had been brought together only since the turn of the century thanks to the mutual fear and suspicion of Germany. Political and military leaders of both countries had one eye on what was best for them as well as for the alliance against Germany.

So against that background, if we look at the facts for a minute, in whose sector did the Germans make the breakthrough that ultimately led to Dunkirk? Are all the accounts false of much of the French army in and around Sedan melting away – not when meeting the Germans, but on rumours of the Germans soon arriving!

Can Churchill and Gort be blamed for not reacting to the French collapse with alarm and for doubting their willingness to fight? Iirc, a counter-attack was planned as the Germans raced for the channel coast, but the French failed to provide the troops promised.

Against this background what were the British to do? By the time the Germans had reached the coast there was no way the Allies could turn the battle – it was a case of how does this end for the troops encircled?
The British were going to fight on against Hitler, the French? They couldn’t be certain but history proves they were right not to take the chance.

When countries are defeated it is natural to look for someone, something to blame. The French and British in WWII were no different. The French blame the British, the British blame the French, and both blame the Belgians!

Facts are, Operation Dynamo played out like it did. Largely French rear-guard actions and the heroism of the Allied navies (btw despite what the video states, the Royal Navy suffered more losses than its French counterpart) bought time for the 300,000 + French and British troops to be evacuated. Britain fought on, and ultimately the Germans were defeated. Let’s be thankful for that.

[Skyland]

I think there is a BBC video on same topic saying nothing about the french.
So the score is 1 - 1[;)].

A good read about this campaign from german point of view, including Dunkirk is "Blitzkried legend. die Westfeldzug 1940". KH Frieser. 1995. Translated in french in 2003. And in english this year.

[tigercub]

warsprite +1

[fuelli]

ORIGINAL: Skyland

I think there is a BBC video on same topic saying nothing about the french.
So the score is 1 - 1[;)].

A good read about this campaign from german point of view, including Dunkirk is "Blitzkried legend. die Westfeldzug 1940". KH Frieser. 1995. Translated in french in 2003. And in english this year.

According to this book the french and british were saved by the germans[;)]

[tocaff]

The facts seem a bit shaded to me. There was no love lost between the 2 countries as shown throughout the war. Even today I find it hard to believe that the British and French will "share" a CV.

[kemmo]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Oh dear.....

Yes, if you read between the lines it’s all quite simple:

French = heroic and brave
British = cowardly backstabbers.

What a shame. The truth of course is never that simple. Did the French provide the bulk of the rear-guard that enabled so many Allied troops to escape? Yes. Was their action heroic and to be applauded and honoured? Yes.
But as I said, things are not that simple.

First and foremost, it must be remembered that the French and British were two separate countries with centuries of enmity and that had been brought together only since the turn of the century thanks to the mutual fear and suspicion of Germany. Political and military leaders of both countries had one eye on what was best for them as well as for the alliance against Germany.

So against that background, if we look at the facts for a minute, in whose sector did the Germans make the breakthrough that ultimately led to Dunkirk? Are all the accounts false of much of the French army in and around Sedan melting away – not when meeting the Germans, but on rumours of the Germans soon arriving!

Can Churchill and Gort be blamed for not reacting to the French collapse with alarm and for doubting their willingness to fight? Iirc, a counter-attack was planned as the Germans raced for the channel coast, but the French failed to provide the troops promised.

Against this background what were the British to do? By the time the Germans had reached the coast there was no way the Allies could turn the battle – it was a case of how does this end for the troops encircled?
The British were going to fight on against Hitler, the French? They couldn’t be certain but history proves they were right not to take the chance.

When countries are defeated it is natural to look for someone, something to blame. The French and British in WWII were no different. The French blame the British, the British blame the French, and both blame the Belgians!

Facts are, Operation Dynamo played out like it did. Largely French rear-guard actions and the heroism of the Allied navies (btw despite what the video states, the Royal Navy suffered more losses than its French counterpart) bought time for the 300,000 + French and British troops to be evacuated. Britain fought on, and ultimately the Germans were defeated. Let’s be thankful for that.

Warspite While I agree with your comments about England and France being thrown together because fear and suspicion, it actually started in 1853 against Russia in the Crimea.

[catwhoorg]

I always laugh when Americans try to bash the French.

We (the Brits) have bee doing it for over a thousand years, and we aren't stopping anytime soon. (the reverse is also true)



Only a politician could come up with the idea of "sharing a CV." Its never going to work out in the long run.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Oh dear.....

Yes, if you read between the lines it’s all quite simple:

French = heroic and brave
British = cowardly backstabbers.

What a shame. The truth of course is never that simple. Did the French provide the bulk of the rear-guard that enabled so many Allied troops to escape? Yes. Was their action heroic and to be applauded and honoured? Yes.
But as I said, things are not that simple.

First and foremost, it must be remembered that the French and British were two separate countries with centuries of enmity and that had been brought together only since the turn of the century thanks to the mutual fear and suspicion of Germany. Political and military leaders of both countries had one eye on what was best for them as well as for the alliance against Germany.

So against that background, if we look at the facts for a minute, in whose sector did the Germans make the breakthrough that ultimately led to Dunkirk? Are all the accounts false of much of the French army in and around Sedan melting away – not when meeting the Germans, but on rumours of the Germans soon arriving!

Can Churchill and Gort be blamed for not reacting to the French collapse with alarm and for doubting their willingness to fight? Iirc, a counter-attack was planned as the Germans raced for the channel coast, but the French failed to provide the troops promised.

Against this background what were the British to do? By the time the Germans had reached the coast there was no way the Allies could turn the battle – it was a case of how does this end for the troops encircled?
The British were going to fight on against Hitler, the French? They couldn’t be certain but history proves they were right not to take the chance.

When countries are defeated it is natural to look for someone, something to blame. The French and British in WWII were no different. The French blame the British, the British blame the French, and both blame the Belgians!

Facts are, Operation Dynamo played out like it did. Largely French rear-guard actions and the heroism of the Allied navies (btw despite what the video states, the Royal Navy suffered more losses than its French counterpart) bought time for the 300,000 + French and British troops to be evacuated. Britain fought on, and ultimately the Germans were defeated. Let’s be thankful for that.

Ah, but if Bismarck had been there disembarking Tigers commanded by General Sherman... [:D]

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

I always laugh when Americans try to bash the French.

We (the Brits) have bee doing it for over a thousand years, and we aren't stopping anytime soon. (the reverse is also true)

Only a politician could come up with the idea of "sharing a CV." Its never going to work out in the long run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0wvGiAH9g

A clip from the previous milenium so its clearly been going on for long...

[Numdydar]

Actually after WWI, the major planning for Britian was how to defend themselves from an attack by the French [:)]. This occuppied a lot of British war plans that were drawn up against a 'contennenal power'. I guess they were really worried about those nasty Belgians again [:D] Or maybe the Danes.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Oh dear.....

Yes, if you read between the lines it’s all quite simple:

French = heroic and brave
British = cowardly backstabbers.

What a shame. The truth of course is never that simple. Did the French provide the bulk of the rear-guard that enabled so many Allied troops to escape? Yes. Was their action heroic and to be applauded and honoured? Yes.
But as I said, things are not that simple.

Yes, for sure. Veriker (Gort) withdrew to the channel ports under War Office contingency plans. He had no clue there would be so many French in the withdrawal space. There was no provision for them in the initial planning. He ended up with elements of the Belgian Army, the French 1st, 7th, and 9th Armys. What to do, what to do?

Frikkin everybody went to the wall in defensive ops. Matters not the nationality of the man who cops a bullet. French, Belgians, and British held the lines so their comrades could be evacuated. They all fought like lions.

The evac happened too fast for politics. God bless and keep Adm Ramsey for making the decision that “every man on the beach will be taken off”.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

I always laugh when Americans try to bash the French.

We (the Brits) have bee doing it for over a thousand years, and we aren't stopping anytime soon. (the reverse is also true)



Only a politician could come up with the idea of "sharing a CV." Its never going to work out in the long run.

But they're trying to assassinate all us Yanks with their darned French (Belgian actually) Fries!

Lafayette, we are here (for some more of your darned fries)!

[geofflambert]

I've heard that the cabbage heads just ran flat out of fuel and the Pz IIs wouldn't go any further.

[oldman45]

I remember reading that Goering convinced Hitler that his Air Force could finish the job. The army more than happy to let Goering fall on his sword obliged and stopped.

[Encircled]

I recommend "Dunkirk- Fight to the last man" by Hugh Sebag-Montefiore

Excellent, particularly about the various formations in the rearguard

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I remember reading that Goering convinced Hitler that his Air Force could finish the job. The army more than happy to let Goering fall on his sword obliged and stopped.

I heard that too.