Alt_Naval IJN Fleet Data

[GaryChildress]

I forget who, but there was someone who asked a while back if I had any of the data from the (now lost) Alt_Naval website to share.

At the time I unfortunately did not. HOWEVER, I just received a zip file yesterday from the creator of the site himself with all his data stored in it. I'm currently negotiating with the gentleman to allow me to release this data to others. I'm hoping he will say "yes". If that is the case I will be glad to share data from the original Alt_naval site with anyone who requests it (assuming others out there don't already have it). [:)]

Personally I am excited. Alt_Naval was a high quality alternative history site and his Japanese fleet, though built with plenty of hindsight, was well thought out and materially plausible. It wasn't just a hodgepodge of "what-if" dream ships thrown together, rather it was a full building program including auxiliaries and escorts all designed to play their role in a coming Pacific War. [&o]

[PAWMatrix]

Sir,
 
Count me in if it becomes available.  I am very keen on seeing this kind of work as I am doing an Alternate myself for War Plan Orange.
 
Thx!
 
PAW

[FatR]

I'm interested in seeing this.

[Venividivici10044]

Certainly interested - sounds fascinating

[gajdacs zsolt]

Count me in

[topeverest]

Gary,

I'd be interested too.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Gary,

I'd be interested too.

Well, I still haven't gotten a reply from the alt_naval site's creator regarding permission to release the stuff to others (it's been a couple weeks now since I emailed him). I'm just going to assume that he doesn't mind if I distribute his work to others. I'm sure he would have said something quicker if he did. I don't see why he would, so long as people give him proper credit in their mods.

If anyone wants his data, PM me with your e-mail address and I'll e-mail it to you. The file is about 2 MBs. A couple rules though. In your mods just acknowledge that the fleet data is from the alt_naval website, give credit where credit is due.

[John 3rd]

Bring it! That was a very useful and well done site when it was operational.

[GaryChildress]

Hi John 3rd, If you'd like a copy of the data just PM me your e-mail. [:)]

[GaryChildress]

Here's a single pic representing the building queue for the Alt_Naval fleet as presented on his website. There is some conflicting info here regarding ship building capacity compared to JWE's chart. Not sure which is correct but I'm guessing JWE put a lot of research into his chart so Alt_Naval may be a little overly optimistic.

[Shark7]

Didn't the Alt_Naval assume the enlargement of the major launching slips and fitting docks though? At least I seem to remember that from browsing the site before it went down.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Didn't the Alt_Naval assume the enlargement of the major launching slips and fitting docks though? At least I seem to remember that from browsing the site before it went down.

Not sure, I'll have to go back over his site.

Meanwhile I've set up my own building queue for the major IJN shipyards which I think should be able to produce the Alt_Naval fleet in ample time. Basically, using JWEs chart of shipbuilding capacity, I've come up with the following building plan:

Up until the Japanese withdraw from all the naval treaties, we have most of the major shipyards pumping out "shadow carriers". These are large tenders and auxiliaries (AVs, ARs, and ASs) designed optimally to be easily converted into CVLs. They basically side step treaty limitations of the early 30s so that the slips are still being utilized. Then around 1936 the dam breaks loose and the big boys start to get cranked, CVs and BBs. The larger shipyards are producing CVs and BBs by 1936 while the smaller ship yards continue with the shadow carriers and CAs. I'm going to assume that Kairyu class CVs and Harima class BBs are not going to be able to be built in the #2 slips.

I've taken the liberty of forgoing the building of APDs for the IJN which are part of the Alt_Naval building plan. I don't think they really need them so most of the later auxiliaries in the building queue are going to be build form the keel up as CVLs from the get go.

Pretty much any ship which hasn't been completed by the later stages of 1940 can be considered as not being available on December 7, 1941. So, I'm drawing the line at CV Koryu. Any ship completed after her is going to miss Pearl Harbor. Also ships being laid down in 1943 probably won't make it into the fleet before the war ends. So effectively the last two ships to be deployed will probably be CV Tairyu and AR Shijiki. Both are completed in the first month of 1944. But if Japan does linger, there will be a couple more ships in the making for deployment in 1946 or beyond.

Grand total the building queues of the major yards from 1932 forward hold the following new builds:

22 "Shadow" CVLs
17 CVs
2 BBs
8 CAs

Also one more note. Yokosuka NSY #2, according to JWEs research, was expanded from 175m to 275m between 1936 and May 1942. During this time no ships appear to have been laid down historically. In my alternative universe conversion of the slip will take place in 1932 and extend only 3 and 1/2 years, in which time the slip will be increased from 175m to a more modest 210m. The yard begins construction again in 1935. This will make the slip large enough to accomodate my shadow carriers and a Kurama class CA in late 1938. Since 175m is not much bigger than a light cruiser slip I'll assume that it won't hurt production much to remove the slip from operation for a few years, especially since the majority of those years will be during the freeze on new warships brough about by the London treaty.

Below is a chart depicting the Japanese building program of Admiral Gary.

[Terminus]

An aspect of Alt_Naval's building program that I enjoy is the "Shadow Destroyer" scheme. The idea that the IJN, instead of building the useless 600-ton torpedo boats that the London treaty allows, builds 2000-ton gunboats that are designed to be uprated to fleet destroyers is a very good one, and far more useful than the "Shadow Carrier" program, which the country lacks the infrastructure to support.

[GaryChildress]

There isn't much detail on the building program for the escorts and light cruisers. This is the best I could come up with. It's full of holes though. It looks to me like the Alt_naval DD and CL plans under-estimate the potential of the building yards according to JWE's findings.

Basically I have the CLs utilizing 150m slips and the DDs utilizing the 125m slips. Alt_Naval puts a hold on destroyer and CL production until 1936, however, even after the break the slips appear under-utilized. I would go ahead and fill the building queues up with as much as I could fit but I don't want to presume too much. The Matsu and Tachibana classes are not mentioned as far as I can tell on Alt_Naval but it seems logical that they should start up around close to their historical building dates. They were decent anti-sub ships and the Japanese need plenty of those in '44.

[JWE]

Thought you might like a list of construction yards that provided ships to the IJN during the war period. No warranty about the pre-war period. Only the NSYs and civilian yards in bold built warships from DDs on up (assumes Matsu was a DD). The rest built the little things (Es, SCs, auxPBs, etc ..). Civilian yards also had to build large numbers of replacement cargo and tanker vessels.

Naval Shipyards
Kure Naval Yard: Kure: Ways - 1 @ 300m, 1 @ 225m, [1 @ 175m, 2 @ 150m]; alt 5 @ 125m, longitudinal construction.
Yokosuka Naval Yard: Yokosuka : Ways – 1 @ 300m, 1 @ 200m, 2 @ 175m, 2 @ 150m.
Sasebo Naval Yard: Sasebo: Ways – 1 @ 200m, 1 @ 175m, 3 @ 150m.
Maizuru Naval Yard: Maizuru: Ways – 1 @ 150m, 4 @ 125m.

Civilian Shipyards
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries: Nagasaki: Ways - 1 @ 275*m, 1 @ 225m, 2 @ 150m, 4 @ 125m.
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries: Kobe: Ways - 1 @ 150m, 2 @ 125m, 3 @ 100m.
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries: Yokohama: Ways - 1 @ 200m, 1 @ 150m, 2 @ 100m.
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries: Shimonoseki: Ways - 1 @ 150m, 2 @ 100m

Kawasaki Shipbuilding: Kobe: Ways - 1 @ 250m, 2 @ 150m, 3 @ 100m.
Kawasaki Shipbuilding: Tanagawa: Ways - 3 @ 100m
Kawasaki Shipbuilding: Senshu: Ways - 3 @ 125m

Hitachi Shipbuilding: Sakurajima: Ways – 2 @ 125m
Hitachi Shipbuilding: Mukojima: Ways – 2 @ 100m.
Hitachi Shipbuilding: Innoshima: Ways – 1 @ 100m, 2 @ 75m.
Hitachi Shipbuilding: Hikoshima: Ways – 1 @ 100m, 2 @ 75m.

Kawaminami HI: Koyagi: Ways – 1 @ 125m. 1 @ 100m, 2 @ 75m
Kawaminami HI: Urasaki: Ways – 1 @ 125m. 1 @ 100m.

Uraga Dockyards: Uraga/Tokyo: Ways - 1 @ 150m, 2 @ 125m, 2 @ 100m.
Fujinagata Shipbuilding: Sakai/Osaka: Ways – 3 @ 125m.

Tokyo Shipbuilding: Ishikawa: Ways - 3 @ 125m.
Mitsui Shipbuilding: Tamano: Ways – 3 @ 125m.
Harima Shipbuilding: Harima: Ways – 1 @ 125m, 1 @ 100m, 1 @ 75m.
Nippon Koukan: Tsurumi: Ways – 1 @ 125m. 2 @ 75m
Osaka Shipbuilding: Osaka: Ways – 1 @ 125m, 1 @ 75m
Niigata Iron Factory: Niigata: Ways – 1 @ 125m, 2 @ 75m
Naniwa Dock: Osaka: Ways – 1 @ 100m, 1 @ 75m
Hakodate Dock: Hakodate: Ways – 1 @ 100m, 1 @ 75m

[Shark7]

The Japanese also had access to facilities at Port Arthur/Dairen and on Formosa that could be utilized for small combatant construction.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Thought you might like a list of construction yards that provided ships to the IJN during the war period. No warranty about the pre-war period. Only the NSYs and civilian yards in bold built warships from DDs on up (assumes Matsu was a DD). The rest built the little things (Es, SCs, auxPBs, etc ..). Civilian yards also had to build large numbers of replacement cargo and tanker vessels.

Naval Shipyards
Kure Naval Yard: Kure: Ways - 1 @ 300m, 1 @ 225m, [1 @ 175m, 2 @ 150m]; alt 5 @ 125m, longitudinal construction.
Yokosuka Naval Yard: Yokosuka : Ways – 1 @ 300m, 1 @ 200m, 2 @ 175m, 2 @ 150m.
Sasebo Naval Yard: Sasebo: Ways – 1 @ 200m, 1 @ 175m, 3 @ 150m.
Maizuru Naval Yard: Maizuru: Ways – 1 @ 150m, 4 @ 125m.

Civilian Shipyards
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries: Nagasaki: Ways - 1 @ 275*m, 1 @ 225m, 2 @ 150m, 4 @ 125m.
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries: Kobe: Ways - 1 @ 150m, 2 @ 125m, 3 @ 100m.
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries: Yokohama: Ways - 1 @ 200m, 1 @ 150m, 2 @ 100m.
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries: Shimonoseki: Ways - 1 @ 150m, 2 @ 100m

Kawasaki Shipbuilding: Kobe: Ways - 1 @ 250m, 2 @ 150m, 3 @ 100m.
Kawasaki Shipbuilding: Tanagawa: Ways - 3 @ 100m
Kawasaki Shipbuilding: Senshu: Ways - 3 @ 125m

Hitachi Shipbuilding: Sakurajima: Ways – 2 @ 125m
Hitachi Shipbuilding: Mukojima: Ways – 2 @ 100m.
Hitachi Shipbuilding: Innoshima: Ways – 1 @ 100m, 2 @ 75m.
Hitachi Shipbuilding: Hikoshima: Ways – 1 @ 100m, 2 @ 75m.

Kawaminami HI: Koyagi: Ways – 1 @ 125m. 1 @ 100m, 2 @ 75m
Kawaminami HI: Urasaki: Ways – 1 @ 125m. 1 @ 100m.

Uraga Dockyards: Uraga/Tokyo: Ways - 1 @ 150m, 2 @ 125m, 2 @ 100m.
Fujinagata Shipbuilding: Sakai/Osaka: Ways – 3 @ 125m.

Tokyo Shipbuilding: Ishikawa: Ways - 3 @ 125m.
Mitsui Shipbuilding: Tamano: Ways – 3 @ 125m.
Harima Shipbuilding: Harima: Ways – 1 @ 125m, 1 @ 100m, 1 @ 75m.
Nippon Koukan: Tsurumi: Ways – 1 @ 125m. 2 @ 75m
Osaka Shipbuilding: Osaka: Ways – 1 @ 125m, 1 @ 75m
Niigata Iron Factory: Niigata: Ways – 1 @ 125m, 2 @ 75m
Naniwa Dock: Osaka: Ways – 1 @ 100m, 1 @ 75m
Hakodate Dock: Hakodate: Ways – 1 @ 100m, 1 @ 75m

Many thanks Shark7! Where is everyone getting all this shipbuilding data from? I'd like to have a peek at the source too. Especially I'd love to see a graphical rundown of the historical building program of the IJN, what ships were built in what slips when... Is there anything out there like that?

EDIT: Sorry JWE, I just realized I was thinking Shark7 had presented the data. Thank you for all your help!

[Terminus]

I seem to remember that JWE got this data directly from an academic source in Japan.

[Shark7]

http://astilleros1939.blogspot.com/sear ... Reparacion

Site is in Spanish, but running it through Yahoo Babelfish or Bing Translate will put it in English fairly accurately. It has quite a bit of info on the slips, drydocks, and facilities for all the Major and most of the Minor countries for 1939.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

http://astilleros1939.blogspot.com/sear ... Reparacion

Site is in Spanish, but running it through Yahoo Babelfish or Bing Translate will put it in English fairly accurately. It has quite a bit of info on the slips, drydocks, and facilities for all the Major and most of the Minor countries for 1939.

Many thanks Shark7. I ran it through Babelfish but I don't see where it gives any detail of how long a ship was under construction or how many slips a particular construction yard had nor what lengths the slips are. It just seems to give a list of yards and then a list of ships that were constructed by the yard and then a few minor details on each ship produced there. Am I missing something? [&:]