First 135 turns in the 1939 Scenario

[Maximeba]

This is an update on a game Dave and myself are playing. We have played the first 135 turns and this game is going to be a humdinger for both sides. Before I start, here are some of the house rules we are playing by:
1) Germany or Russia can not declare war on each other for 1 full year after the fall of Poland.
2) Russia can not declare war on any country (major or minor) until the expiration of the Molotov Ribbentroph agreement.
3) PP’s can be lent over land (unlimited) to countries that have no ports. If both the lending and receiving country have ports then pp’s have to be shipped by sea transports.
4) USA cannot lend pp’s until January of 1941 or until USA is in the war and only to countries that are at war with Germany.
5) USA cannot enter the war until 6 full months after the invasion of Russia by Germany. This represents the time between the German invasion of Russia and the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
6) If USA gets a Pearl Harbor event before the 6 month wait, then USA will refuse to go to war and Germany or USA will declare war on each other at the appropriate time.
7) There will be no borders shown except the original border of a country. This is to help units operating behind enemy lines.
8) Visibility is set at 2 hexes.
9) Other than these eight rules, anything goes.

The beginning of the game started as normal, Germany took out Poland on the 24th of October 1939. This gave us the possible start date for the invasion of Russia; which would be 24th of October 1940. Dave didn’t waste any time as he started his invasion of the Netherlands and Belgium in January of 1940. By the 1st of February the rotten Germans had conquered Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg and the run for France was on.

I was not going to let England get sucked into helping France, too many games those lost pp’s came back to haunt me. France was going to defend herself and the British would sit back and get ready for anything the Axis might throw at us. As a result of this tactic France fell by April 1940. I did do a cheesy move at this point of the game. France had a few turns left in her after Paris fell, so I had France send her 40 pp’s to Britain, after all what was France going to do with them and I couldn’t think of a more deserving country than England. At this point in the game I had considered disbanding the French Fleet so the Germans would not get their grubby little hands on them when Vichy France went pro Axis. I thought this would be a bit too gamey and if the Axis had control of a larger fleet it might make for a more enjoyable game for both of us.

There was one strange twist at this part of the game. Dave decided not put Italy into the war. This strategy seemed a little bit strange but by doing this Germany received all the points for France. This may have been a good strategy for the long outlook of this game for the Germans.

Dave, is not one to sit back and wait until October 24th for the invasion of Russia, so he decided to take on Yugoslavia and Greece. Yugoslavia fell but Greece…that was a different story! Greece with the help of the British hung in at Crete. All attempts by the Germans to take Crete has failed. British troops with the help of their Greek ally are guarding Crete and the Greeks will remain in the game. This all happened by August 1, 1940.

In the mean time I’m just sitting back, as there really isn’t much for me to do with Britain, but I am worried about my navy and the upcoming sea battles that may occur in the future. I spent my pp’s on technology for navy and air force. I felt these two areas should be first as the naval and air battles will come before the ground battles.

At this point the Russians are buying their first of 600 level 1 divisions. I will lay row after row of these units in defense of Russia.

I should have known better, it’s September 24th and the Germans are bored. Dave decided to declare war on Turkey. Great, I’m at the other end of Africa waiting on the Italians to declare war and Dave is coming through the back door. This move is a real threat to the British in Africa and the Russians in the South. I have to figure out a way of stopping the Germans or the game could be lost.

The British have sent several divisions to Turkey that will be built to corps. The line will extend north to south from Antalya, Konya, Ankara going north to the Black Sea. It’s lucky for the British that they saved pp’s as they will need them to convert these division to corps. The battle lines have been drawn and the Turkish front has been stalemated for now. It has taken all of the English pp’s to form this line and the technology part of the British game is going to suffer.

It’s now the 24th of June and here comes the German invasion of Russia. This means that the Americans can enter the war on the 24th of December. This went almost as expected, Russians dying at the expense of the Germans, Rumanians, and Hungarians. What wasn’t expected was the Russian fleet dying to the German fleet in the Black Sea. To my surprise, the Tripiz and her cousins are in the Black Sea causing all sorts of havoc. That German slime dog decided to put ships in the Yugoslavian port of Split. It’s bad enough I will at some point have to deal with the Italians in the Med but now the Germans. Oh! I will have my revenge. By the way the Italians are still neutral in the game.

The Russian game plan is to make a defensive stand in Leningrad, Kaluga, Orel, Stalingrad, Vogodonsk and Rostov. Hopefully the line will hold. Also I decided to put any and all available funds into the development of artillery and to hold off on any other development. I feel I will need these funds to hold off the Axis horde at the above mentioned defensive lines.

Back at the Turkish front, the Germans are having none of my stalemate plans and have decided to make an amphibious assault at Trabzon. Trabzon fell to the Germans and I didn’t know anything about the assault for several turns until I tried to sr a British unit to Trabzon. It took the combined effort of the British, Turkish and Russian armies to push the nasty Germans into the Black Sea. I was very fortunate that the Germans didn’t get a stronger foot hold.

After all of this, I thought all would be quiet on the Turkish Front and so it was until Vichy France decided to enter the game on the German side! This caught both sides by surprise, as Vichy France has always entered the war in previous games on the Axis side due to diplomacy.

Anyhow I was playing along thinking all was fine when I noticed a British unit missing in a fort west of Cairo. I forgot about Libya being part of Vichy France and it wasn’t until the Germans took that fort by Cairo that I realized that the Germans were coming over for dinner. The Germans continued to pour units into Libya and put the Brits in Turkey out of supply. I am now forced to bring supply through the Port of Antalaya.

With this move Italy and the US entered the war. Britain is pushing the Germans back in Libya and has re-established a land base supply back to the Brits in Turkey. I was able to do this at the expense of the British navy which took a pounding in the Eastern Med, keeping the Germans out of supply in Libya.

Here are a few snap shots of the game:



Turkish nothern front, still have some holes to fill. I will beat the Germans to the north.

Stalemated the Germans in Southern Turkey.

This is the northern front of Russia, three turns before the German invasion. Each red flag represents a Russian level 1 division.

This is the Southern front of Russia. Again each flag represents a level 1 division. The swamp is a natural barrier as ground units move 1 hex per turn.

This is where I plan on making my stand. Hopefully the German army will be worn down a bit when they get here by attacking all of my ants in the west.

This is my center defense.

Northern Center defense.
Northern Defense. I will pull all of my air force to the south around Stalingrad and hide from the German Luffwaffle.

[Maximeba]

Sorry, I tried to send snap shots of the game but only 1 pic can be loaded per message.

[Hairog]

Sorry to kibitz but it seems a little gamey to have all those level one divisions lined up like that. I dislike the tactic myself as not being possible IRL. Maybe there should be a limit of how many level one divisions you can make.
 
Again just my opinion.

[Tomokatu]

all those level one divisions lined up like that

He'll pay for that decision when combat starts. Each combat loss requiring a retreat will be upgraded to an elimination when the divisions have nowhere to go.

[Hairog]

You're right his current setup is not the best but that was not my concern.
 
The whole concept is just too unrealistic in the first place. I had to deal with a bunch of "zergs" in France and it really slows everything up unrealistically. It would sometimes take three 7 to 1 attacks to destroy them while they retreated all over, even behind your frontlines.
 
It's just not my cup of tea. There should be an over run rule that an 8 to 1 attack is automatic elimination with no movement penalty or something. It just isn't any fun or close to any kind of reality IMHO. [8|]

[Maximeba]

Hairog, I'm assuming when you say realistic you mean historical. I'm sorry you don't like the Russian set up, but I feel I'm playing a game not a simulation. I was trying to be creative against a very capable opponent. The attempt at this defense in depth was to try and slow the Germans down. In previous games where I tried to play more realistic the Russians got slaughtered, to the point of being a non factor.

As far as Tomokatu's comments that I will pay for that decision when combat starts, I agree. But I was never going to retreat those units; they are there to die. As a matter of fact I'm not sure I spent anymore pp's laying those lines of divisions than I would a single line of corps.

The one thing I've learned is there are as many tactics as there are players, and that is what is great about playing against other players. You get the experince and joy of seeing other tactics played against you that you normally wouldn't experience playing the game against a computer or against an opponent that you always play with. I wish there were more posts from other players talking about their stategies with pictures. Thanks for your comments, they're always appreciated!

[cpdeyoung]

There are many ways to look at the situation. Think what a map at this scale would look like if each collective farm and village was made into a strongpoint. I think it would look a lot like the map we see. There is no way in the current rules to represent the factors which stopped the Germans from roaring at 30 kph through the Soviet Union.  The roads were abysmal, the railways were the wrong gauge, the populace increasingly hostile, supplies growing scarce, men growing exausted, etc, etc, etc. So if a Red Army commander throws troops in recklessly, and if they sometimes manage to cause the German to slip in the puddles of blood, let it be. There are games where the real factors which inhibited the Germans are more accurately modeled.  As a player you might not like these factors.
 
The Germans didn't like them either.
 
Chuck

[Hairog]

"Hairog, I'm assuming when you say realistic you mean historical."
 
Not to belabor the point but I mean historically realistic. I don't play simulations to recreate history as it really happened. I want to explore the what ifs. So no... I don't mean historical. If a player can figure out a way to win that is historically realistic so be it. But I do have to complain about using a loop hole in the rules that has no basis in reality or logic.
 
I take Chucks point about multiple strong points being set up to slow down the panzers. I also know that in almost any other game I've played and enjoyed, there was a mechanism called over-run. I believe it should be used in this simulation.
 
If the odds were over 7-1 then you just over-ran the unit with a minimal movement penalty. This to me simulates reality much closer than having to attack 3 times at 7-1 odds (the maximum) to finally destroy an obviously very weak unit that is retreating behind your lines. If the odds are 7-1 or greater than realistically, historically, logically you are SOL as a defender and at most should be able to slow up the enemy and certainly should not be able to cause losses or withstand 3 such attacks.
 
I know you are going to say well what about this battle and that battle where the physical odds (man on man) were 7 to 1 or greater and the attacker lost or suffered great losses.
 
There are a number of cases where this is true but it does not take into account the terrain, fortification, moral, logistics, training, skill level, etc. that would bring down the odds to make it less than 7 to 1 in game terms. An example might be 100 troops in an intact Maginot Line being attacked by 700 troops. Now take those same 100 soldiers out in the open being attacked 700 soldiers of equal training, moral, supplies, equipment etc.
 
This game does this by various mechanisms so theoretically a 7 to 1 attack is indeed a 7 to 1 attack or greater and all the factors that would strengthen the defender are already taken into account. IMHO a 7 to 1 attack should be an automatic elimination with very little penalty to the attacker but a movement point loss at most.
 
Maybe you can make the case that a higher threshold should be used. Say even as high as 10 to 1. So be it, but there should be some reasonable limit.
 
This over-run model is used very successful in many other simulations and works to simulate real world results.

[Tomokatu]

This to me simulates reality much closer than having to attack 3 times at 7-1 odds (the maximum) to finally destroy an obviously very weak unit that is retreating behind your lines.

I'm not certain I agree with your philosophy, in that I don't believe that even a 7:1 combat should be guaranteed. Sixty (plus) years ago (if we're going to talk of realism), there was always the chance that any combat would not work out well for you, the individual - the game needs to incorporate some level of uncertainty, at least, to recreate historicity. A guaranteed retreat - maybe, a guaranteed kill - not really. The repeated attacks are the same as the "minimal movement penalty" perhaps?
 
Yes, units behind your lines will run away, even at 7:1. You have to pin them first, whether with ZoCs or against terrain. If you've not done that to start with, then the inconvenience of having to make a series of attacks is reasonable.
 
Maximeba's "Wall of Bodies" strategy is as close to the early Soviet strategy forced upon Stavka as you could historically want. Yes, it's gamey but reasonably accurate, too.

[PrinceBolkonsky]

Logistically this kind of mobilization would be a nightmare.  This game needs to have the units re-factored and stacking should be possible.  The corps division mobility difference is a good thing.  Armor and Motorized units need to be a bit more slippery and resilient.  The most powerful pieces ought to be large infantry corps.  The scale of the game allows for armored formations to have operational tasks that would keep them as divisions except for breakthroughs.  It would nice to be able to form corps and then break them back down into divisions.  The mobile divisions isolate the enemy and the artillery and machine guns of the large infantry formations do the lions share of the killing.