Scenario Idea Practical?

[Akmatov]

The Harpoon Bug is nibbling and I'm going to mess around a bit this weekend.

In the past I've tried to create a particular behavior in a scenario and never gotten it to work, the why is long forgotten. But is it practical to try to set up a pattern of long range air patrols out of Kola into the mid-Atlantic with a trigger to launch bombers if targets are discovered for a 10 day period? I have had it succeed for one sighting and one bomber attack and then no more patrols are launched. I was hoping for an extended battle across the Atlantic. Is this doable and I just haven't done it correctly or is it something that can not be set up?

[Warhorse64]

It sounds like it should be doable. I'm not sure about this, but I think that the game will cancel a standing patrol if at any time there are no units with the appropriate loadout available at the launching base, so that might be why your patrols stopped after the first strike launch, if you were using the same bombers for both the patrol and the strike. The solution there would be to use something like Bear-Ds for the patrol, and Backfires for the strikers. I've noticed, though, that the attrition level for both scouts and bombers in these sorts of scenarios tends to be painfully high if the Blue player has much in the way of air assets.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Akmatov

But is it practical to try to set up a pattern of long range air patrols out of Kola into the mid-Atlantic with a trigger to launch bombers if targets are discovered for a 10 day period?

How long ago did you try out your idea? Which version of HC were you using at the time? Behaviours have changed regarding the Patrol missions in HCE. For example, if you assign a Bear to a continuously repeated long-range patrol mission at a single point, the Bear no longer turns on its radar when it reaches the assigned point. This is a significant difference from the original game.

[Akmatov]

How long ago did you try out your idea?

Probably about two years ago.

Which version of HC were you using at the time?

v2008.044

Behaviors have changed regarding the Patrol missions in HCE. For example, if you assign a Bear to a continuously repeated long-range patrol mission at a single point, the Bear no longer turns on its radar when it reaches the assigned point. This is a significant difference from the original game.

WHAT!!!!???? Why in the world would this be changed?  It seems to utterly castrate the Bear recon platform.  Why not just delete the Bears from the inventory if they no longer can be used for recon?

Unhappy and totally puzzled.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Akmatov

Behaviors have changed regarding the Patrol missions in HCE. For example, if you assign a Bear to a continuously repeated long-range patrol mission at a single point, the Bear no longer turns on its radar when it reaches the assigned point. This is a significant difference from the original game.

WHAT!!!!???? Why in the world would this be changed? It seems to utterly castrate the Bear recon platform. Why not just delete the Bears from the inventory if they no longer can be used for recon?

Unhappy and totally puzzled.

I agree that it would seem to emasculate the effectiveness of the Bears, too. However, that is the current behaviour and I do not know the reasoning behind it. You can confirm it for yourself by simply making up a quick test scenario.

[Warhorse64]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

I agree that it would seem to emasculate the effectiveness of the Bears, too. However, that is the current behaviour and I do not know the reasoning behind it. You can confirm it for yourself by simply making up a quick test scenario.

They probably did it that way because at least 90% of the time, a Bear that switches on its radar as soon as it gets to its patrol station eats a pair of AIM-54s before it sees a blessed thing. It's been a while since I've done anything with the game; is it possible to give sensor orders to a patrolling aircraft?

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Warhorse64

They probably did it that way because at least 90% of the time, a Bear that switches on its radar as soon as it gets to its patrol station eats a pair of AIM-54s before it sees a blessed thing. It's been a while since I've done anything with the game; is it possible to give sensor orders to a patrolling aircraft?

I agree that the Bears usually died whenever they turned on their radar. However, the fact remains that they actually had a some small chance of detecting the ships when it happened. By never turning on their radar, they have a statistical zero chance of detecting anything (unless they flew right over the target and detected it visually [;)])

I have not looked at the problem lately, either. I do not know if the patrols might somehow self-activate the radar under other circumstances. AFAIK, there is currently no way to have the patrol planes on long-range patrol activate their sensors upon command of the scenario designer.

[Akmatov]

Hmm, interesting.  Bearing in mind that I'm using the latest Matrix patch, 2008.044 not the newest one from the HarpGamer formun, my results this evening are interesting, to me anyway.

1) The Bear Ds come out of Murmansk with their surface search radars on.  I don't think that was something I could have set.
2) The Continuous Patrol order for the Bears worked just fine.  Even when one got shot down flying over a FFG, it's replacement launched on schedule to take over the patrol.
3) The Bears sighting surface ships seemed to result in two Backfire attacks in a four day long scenario, both on the first day. No surface group was attacked twice, leaving heavily damaged ship to survive. It seemed like the attacks were only triggered by the initial patrols.  When the first pair of Bears, I had two up on a continuous patrol line, retired back to base and were replaced, no more attacks were launched.  For three days the Bears ignored one surface group that was damaged and one that had lost two FFGs in the first day attacks.

I 'think' some of the Backfires that attacked the second surface group had also participated in the first attack on the first surface group.

At any rate, while the Bear D - Backfire team worked, it only worked one time, for the first pair of recon Bears.  After that no more attacks.  I even had one surface group sail so close to one of the recon Bear Ds that it was shot down, but still no response out of Murmansk.

So my idea of a scenario of a convoy fighting it's way across the Atlantic in the face of MULTIPLE air attacks, plus some submarines doesn't seem doable if the bombers are only good for one/two attacks.

Hmm, wonder what would happen if I had Bear Ds and Backfires paired at difference bases in teams with each team patroling/attacking one sector with other teams patroling/attacking other sectors.  That would dilute the power of any one air strike, but it might enable multiple strikes.

[Akmatov]

They probably did it that way because at least 90% of the time, a Bear that switches on its radar as soon as it gets to its patrol station eats a pair of AIM-54s before it sees a blessed thing.

Hmm, given that tonight my Bear-Ds seemed to have taken off with their surface search radars on, it would seem that even though they were shot down quickly, if they got a contact with a surface target at all before they were flamed, I would have expected a Backfire launch.

That should be easily testable.

Although, I suspect I'm using an older patch version that folks here are talking about, i.e. before the patrol plane radar being hacked out.

[hermanhum]

I am using the patch 2009.042.  Here is my test file:

fb.asp?m=2542739

May I see the file you are using?  Maybe we are talking about two different things.

In my test file, turn on the Show All function (Alt+Ctrl+S) you can see a Bear launch from Monchenegorsk.  However, it never turns on its radar when it reaches the patrol point because there is no reported ESM contact from the ships.  If you manually turn on the Bear's radar, it is immediately detected and reported by the ships.

[Warhorse64]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

I agree that the Bears usually died whenever they turned on their radar. However, the fact remains that they actually had a some small chance of detecting the ships when it happened. By never turning on their radar, they have a statistical zero chance of detecting anything (unless they flew right over the target and detected it visually [;)])

... Or unless the target is using its own radar, which is actually not a completely bad idea if you suspect there are subs around. Hawkeyes especially seem to be an absolute magnet for Red A/C.

[hermanhum]

Even if there were subs around, why would you turn on ships' radar?  The airborne radar will give sufficient coverage, no?  I would think that the presence of AEW precludes any use of shipboard radar systems.

[Akmatov]

I am using the patch 2009.042.  Here is my test file:

fb.asp?m=2542739

I'm using 2008.044, the latest patch from Matrix.
[30 SEP] Harpoon - Commander's Edition v2008.044 Update (271 MB)

So we are running two different patch versions - hence the different behaviors.

And WOW!  I had never known about Show All function (Alt+Ctrl+S)!!!!!!  And it doesn't show up in the Harpoon Help Keyboard Commands

That is GREAT! I'm still, as usual, at the point of figuring out how things work and Show All means I don't have to set up weird E-3 arrangements and hope to see the whole picture.  Many Thanks.

[hermanhum]

Here is the HCE patch not released by Matrix, but probably pretty good for you to use: http://tinyurl.com/369phnl

Can you post up a copy of your test file? The difference between patch versions may or may not explain the different behaviours we are each observing. Having a specific test file on hand is a great help in running down problems.

VictorInThePacific made up some great hotkey pages. They may help you with other unknown hotkeys.

tm.asp?m=2090390.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Akmatov

That is GREAT! I'm still, as usual, at the point of figuring out how things work and Show All means I don't have to set up weird E-3 arrangements and hope to see the whole picture. Many Thanks.

This may, in fact explain why your Bears advance with their radar activated. When the Bears are detected by radar, they instinctively activate their own. If you had aircraft detect them near their base of launch, they might have activated and continued onwards to their patrol position. That is why having everyone look at the same test file is so important. [:)]

[Akmatov]

OK, using Show All I can report that during a 4 day scenario:

1) Air Strikes only result from sightings by the first recon aircraft.  All following aircraft in the Continuous Patrol order fail to initiate Air Strikes on extremely visible ship groups.

2) Air Strikes will utilized some of the same aircraft for two Air Strikes (a base with 10x Backfires launched 2x Air Strikes - one with 10x Backfires (all of them) and one with 6x Backfires.)  Note that although the second Air Strike was launched on a Surface Group that had just entered detection range of a Bear D, the Bear D was one of the first pair of Bears on patrol.

Obviously, this limitation makes modeling of the Soviet strategy of combining recon aircraft with ASM bombers impossible.

Next step, unless someone has a better idea, will be to see what can be done with one of the patches from HarpGamer; although if they are still castrating the recon aircraft they will really only be useful as planters for roses or something, certainly of no use as recon aircraft.

[hermanhum]

Please post your test file so that it can be examined.  You might be missing something simple.

[Akmatov]

Errr, what would a test file be?

[hermanhum]

It would just be your scenario file (the one you have been running [:)]).

[Akmatov]

Oh, and I just updated my HCE with HC2009.042inc.zip and  HC2010.006GE.zip from HarpGamer and did a short run test.

1) Reports are completely correct, the AI Bear D recon aircraft now do not turn on their surface search radar and are now completely useless, as well as are several billion rubles of ASM carrying bombers up around Murmansk.  This castration now makes it impossible to model a key Soviet strategy.  With this change several regiments of very expensive Soviet bombers will spend the war waiting for a recon report that will never ever come.  Yes, I am NOT amused.

2) I believe I read that in one of the more recentish patches the grid lines were disabled.  Well, mine are on permanently.  I can change the way they are applied, as usual, but the On/Off buttons are grayed out.  The scenario I cooked up to test things had them turned on, so my guess is they were imported into the game from the scenario.  I like having the grid lines as a general thing, but it would be nice to be able to turn them off.