I mention the Panther gun above so that a 'scale' of accuracy 'feel' can be felt. The German 50mmL60 gun can be seen as a miniature Panther gun. Its range is not as great, of course, but its a medium range 'long-barrel' accurate weapon. teh Soviets certainly admired it.
The same was said of the US 37mm. A shorter range weapon still but annoying in that it could 'cherry-pick' parts of tanks. Just like the Soviet ATG rifles (they at short range), the US 37mm was noted for going for selected areas of tanks. Bow MG, cupolas, turret rings, etc.
Gun Accuracy in PC
Moderator: koiosworks
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Yoozername
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RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
A report that can be viewed as applicable given the similiar time period and the open terrain of Russia.
*Source: U.S. War Department, Military Intelligence Service, Artillery in the Desert (Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 25 November 1942), 54-59.
German Offensive Tactics
... A German tank battalion in tactical formation moves in short rushes, taking advantage of the terrain. Frequently the whole regiment advanced in mass formation with lines of tanks at regular intervals of about 50 yards, advancing in waves. The relatively close formation is more readily controlled than a widely dispersed one. Field artillery and antitank weapons are kept up close, although their location is not apparent until they go into action, usually on the flanks of the tank column. The Germans have in the past been able to bring effective artillery and antitank fire to bear on the British before the British could effectively fire upon them. In addition, RAF planes, because of the pilots' inability to distinguish between their own and German tanks, have not attacked German tank formations in the forward areas.
d. Offensive Tactics
In the desert frontal attacks have not often been used, an effort being made more often to attack from one or both flanks. German tanks usually open fire at 1,500 to 2,000 yards, which is beyond the effective range of the hostile weapons that they have thus far encountered. When contact is made, the speed of advance is slowed down unless the movement is a quick thrust to force the withdrawal of weaker hostile forces. The 75-mm and 50-mm guns are used to keep hostile tanks out of range.
(1) Usual German objectives.-The object of the Germans is to knock out quickly as many of the antitank guns and foremost field guns as may be visible. When the German tank commander has decided to attack a position, his first objective has often been the British 25-pounders. By reconnaissance in tanks he first locates the British battery positions and makes his plans. This plan in principle always appears to be the same. He decides which battery to attack and he arranges to attack it from enfilade. His attack is made with 105-mm guns, the 88mm dual-purpose guns, and both Mark III and IV tanks. The 105-mm guns fire from covered positions; their observation posts are in tanks. The 88-mm dual-purpose guns are towed. These guns use direct fire from their trailers after attaining defiladed positions at ranges varying from 2,000 to 2,500 yards. The Mark IV tanks assume positions in defilade and fire over open sights at ranges varying from 2,000 to 2,500 yards. The high velocity 75-mm gun in the Mark IV tank and the 88-mm dual-purpose gun have far higher muzzle velocities than any artillery that the British have had in the desert.
(2) German Mark III tanks.-The Mark III tank is used as the main striking force in attack. It has the dominant role in tank-versus-tank combat. Its heavy armor and powerful 50-mm gun give it a decided advantage over all types of tanks which it has thus far encountered in the desert. The 75-mm gun in the Mark IV tank is not an antitank gun but a close-support weapon. Its maximum range is 7,000 yards. Frequently these tanks use direct laying from a defiladed position in which, owing to the location of the gun in the turret, they offer a very small target. At other times the fire is massed, with indirect laying, and is adjusted by forward or flank observers in tanks. Tanks rarely fire while moving, although in at least one instance they were used to fire a rolling barrage at from 3,000 to 4,000 yards while advancing slowly. This forced the opposing tanks to close up doors and turrets.
The first wave of Mark III tanks overrun the gun positions. The second wave of Mark III tanks is closely followed by the motorized infantry, which detrucks only when forced to and cleans up the position with small-arms fire, assisted by tanks which accompany it. After the artillery has neutralized the tanks, the support infantry is attacked. Such attacks have nearly always neutralized the artillery, either by destroying it when the attack was driven home, or by forcing it to withdraw before the tank attack was launched. A successful defense against such attacks has been made only when a tank force was available to launch a counterattack from concealed positions against the flank of the German tank attack.
(3) The German Mark IV tanks used as artillery.-In the attack the Germans maneuver to some position where their Mark IV tanks can take up a position in defilade. The Germans meanwhile make a reconnaissance, probing the enemy from all directions to test his strength, and to induce the defenders to disclose their positions by opening fire. During this period, observation posts keep close watch, and any guns which disclose their positions are marked down for destruction when the main attack begins. Then, from their defiladed positions, the Mark IV's attack by fire all antitank guns or light artillery which are visible and within range. Light artillery, antitank guns, and machine guns with the same mission are pushed forward among and to the flanks of the tanks. Observers and occasionally infantry are pushed further forward.
Each German tank battalion has one company of 10 Mark IV tanks, which are employed in 2 principal roles: as highly mobile artillery, and as a component of a fast-moving column. Often field artillery cannot be immediately available in armored engagements; the Mark IV tank with its 75-mm gun together with the artillery of the armored division provides German armored formations with the necessary heavy firepower for a breakthrough.
The maximum range of the 75-mm gun is reported to be 9,000 yards. This relatively long range dictates to troops equipped with light antitank guns the time and place of a battle. In addition, the speed of the Mark IV tank is sufficient to enable it to take part in a rapid advance with the Mark III tanks. The Germans have used these tanks as sniper guns, as artillery against forward British columns, and as heavy concealed weapons in the ambushes into which German armored cars have tried to draw the British cars. In a defensive situation the Mark IV is able to engage British troops from outside the range of the antitank guns, avoiding at the same time, by their mobility, the British artillery fire.
(4) Field artillery support.-The 105-mm mobile batteries and the 75-mm guns of the Mark IV tank furnish the principal artillery support for the German Mark III tank, which is the main attacking tank. Sometimes the 88-mm dual-purpose gun is used in conjunction with the Mark III tank.
Some reports indicate that the direction of this supporting fire is carried out by a system of air bursts, since air bursts have been immediately followed by HE concentrations. The fire of 75-mm and 105-mm guns using HE shells has not been reported to be extremely effective. Casualties caused to personnel and tanks by these weapons have been reported to be the result of a new flare-a 75-mm shell which envelopes the tank in flames regardless of what portion of the tank is hit. One whole tank regiment was reported destroyed by this type of projectile. Although the casualties caused from these weapons may be slight, all reports agree that they have a high nuisance value to tanks because of the blinding effect of the smoke and dust. The 88-mm is effective; tanks hit squarely by this gun are destroyed ....
e. German Methods of Forcing Gaps through Mine fields
A heavy artillery concentration is placed on the point to be forced and upon the defending troops in the vicinity. After the defenders' resistance is lowered by the concentration, a comparatively small number of foot troops advance to the gap under cover of smoke or of dust raised by the concentration; they locate the mines by prodding the ground with bayonets or with mine detectors; the mines are then removed. Casualties are replaced from a reserve unit that is held immediately in the rear. This method was used in forcing a gap through the mine field that was part of the defenses of Tobruk; the preliminary concentration lasted for two hours. After a gap is forced and marked, infantry followed by tanks or tanks followed by infantry attack through the gap. Infantry preceded the tanks in the battle of Tobruk.
*Source: U.S. War Department, Military Intelligence Service, Artillery in the Desert (Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 25 November 1942), 54-59.
German Offensive Tactics
... A German tank battalion in tactical formation moves in short rushes, taking advantage of the terrain. Frequently the whole regiment advanced in mass formation with lines of tanks at regular intervals of about 50 yards, advancing in waves. The relatively close formation is more readily controlled than a widely dispersed one. Field artillery and antitank weapons are kept up close, although their location is not apparent until they go into action, usually on the flanks of the tank column. The Germans have in the past been able to bring effective artillery and antitank fire to bear on the British before the British could effectively fire upon them. In addition, RAF planes, because of the pilots' inability to distinguish between their own and German tanks, have not attacked German tank formations in the forward areas.
d. Offensive Tactics
In the desert frontal attacks have not often been used, an effort being made more often to attack from one or both flanks. German tanks usually open fire at 1,500 to 2,000 yards, which is beyond the effective range of the hostile weapons that they have thus far encountered. When contact is made, the speed of advance is slowed down unless the movement is a quick thrust to force the withdrawal of weaker hostile forces. The 75-mm and 50-mm guns are used to keep hostile tanks out of range.
(1) Usual German objectives.-The object of the Germans is to knock out quickly as many of the antitank guns and foremost field guns as may be visible. When the German tank commander has decided to attack a position, his first objective has often been the British 25-pounders. By reconnaissance in tanks he first locates the British battery positions and makes his plans. This plan in principle always appears to be the same. He decides which battery to attack and he arranges to attack it from enfilade. His attack is made with 105-mm guns, the 88mm dual-purpose guns, and both Mark III and IV tanks. The 105-mm guns fire from covered positions; their observation posts are in tanks. The 88-mm dual-purpose guns are towed. These guns use direct fire from their trailers after attaining defiladed positions at ranges varying from 2,000 to 2,500 yards. The Mark IV tanks assume positions in defilade and fire over open sights at ranges varying from 2,000 to 2,500 yards. The high velocity 75-mm gun in the Mark IV tank and the 88-mm dual-purpose gun have far higher muzzle velocities than any artillery that the British have had in the desert.
(2) German Mark III tanks.-The Mark III tank is used as the main striking force in attack. It has the dominant role in tank-versus-tank combat. Its heavy armor and powerful 50-mm gun give it a decided advantage over all types of tanks which it has thus far encountered in the desert. The 75-mm gun in the Mark IV tank is not an antitank gun but a close-support weapon. Its maximum range is 7,000 yards. Frequently these tanks use direct laying from a defiladed position in which, owing to the location of the gun in the turret, they offer a very small target. At other times the fire is massed, with indirect laying, and is adjusted by forward or flank observers in tanks. Tanks rarely fire while moving, although in at least one instance they were used to fire a rolling barrage at from 3,000 to 4,000 yards while advancing slowly. This forced the opposing tanks to close up doors and turrets.
The first wave of Mark III tanks overrun the gun positions. The second wave of Mark III tanks is closely followed by the motorized infantry, which detrucks only when forced to and cleans up the position with small-arms fire, assisted by tanks which accompany it. After the artillery has neutralized the tanks, the support infantry is attacked. Such attacks have nearly always neutralized the artillery, either by destroying it when the attack was driven home, or by forcing it to withdraw before the tank attack was launched. A successful defense against such attacks has been made only when a tank force was available to launch a counterattack from concealed positions against the flank of the German tank attack.
(3) The German Mark IV tanks used as artillery.-In the attack the Germans maneuver to some position where their Mark IV tanks can take up a position in defilade. The Germans meanwhile make a reconnaissance, probing the enemy from all directions to test his strength, and to induce the defenders to disclose their positions by opening fire. During this period, observation posts keep close watch, and any guns which disclose their positions are marked down for destruction when the main attack begins. Then, from their defiladed positions, the Mark IV's attack by fire all antitank guns or light artillery which are visible and within range. Light artillery, antitank guns, and machine guns with the same mission are pushed forward among and to the flanks of the tanks. Observers and occasionally infantry are pushed further forward.
Each German tank battalion has one company of 10 Mark IV tanks, which are employed in 2 principal roles: as highly mobile artillery, and as a component of a fast-moving column. Often field artillery cannot be immediately available in armored engagements; the Mark IV tank with its 75-mm gun together with the artillery of the armored division provides German armored formations with the necessary heavy firepower for a breakthrough.
The maximum range of the 75-mm gun is reported to be 9,000 yards. This relatively long range dictates to troops equipped with light antitank guns the time and place of a battle. In addition, the speed of the Mark IV tank is sufficient to enable it to take part in a rapid advance with the Mark III tanks. The Germans have used these tanks as sniper guns, as artillery against forward British columns, and as heavy concealed weapons in the ambushes into which German armored cars have tried to draw the British cars. In a defensive situation the Mark IV is able to engage British troops from outside the range of the antitank guns, avoiding at the same time, by their mobility, the British artillery fire.
(4) Field artillery support.-The 105-mm mobile batteries and the 75-mm guns of the Mark IV tank furnish the principal artillery support for the German Mark III tank, which is the main attacking tank. Sometimes the 88-mm dual-purpose gun is used in conjunction with the Mark III tank.
Some reports indicate that the direction of this supporting fire is carried out by a system of air bursts, since air bursts have been immediately followed by HE concentrations. The fire of 75-mm and 105-mm guns using HE shells has not been reported to be extremely effective. Casualties caused to personnel and tanks by these weapons have been reported to be the result of a new flare-a 75-mm shell which envelopes the tank in flames regardless of what portion of the tank is hit. One whole tank regiment was reported destroyed by this type of projectile. Although the casualties caused from these weapons may be slight, all reports agree that they have a high nuisance value to tanks because of the blinding effect of the smoke and dust. The 88-mm is effective; tanks hit squarely by this gun are destroyed ....
e. German Methods of Forcing Gaps through Mine fields
A heavy artillery concentration is placed on the point to be forced and upon the defending troops in the vicinity. After the defenders' resistance is lowered by the concentration, a comparatively small number of foot troops advance to the gap under cover of smoke or of dust raised by the concentration; they locate the mines by prodding the ground with bayonets or with mine detectors; the mines are then removed. Casualties are replaced from a reserve unit that is held immediately in the rear. This method was used in forcing a gap through the mine field that was part of the defenses of Tobruk; the preliminary concentration lasted for two hours. After a gap is forced and marked, infantry followed by tanks or tanks followed by infantry attack through the gap. Infantry preceded the tanks in the battle of Tobruk.
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Yoozername
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RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
Not sure if this data is for all ATG and AFV guns but it seems to show that 1 out of 6 tanks/AFV are destroyed over 800m range for 75mm and 2 out of 6 for 88mm guns. I would assume that 75mm would predominately mean 75mmL48 (on panzerIV and Stug mostly) and 75mmL46 on pak40 and Marder. 88mm would mostly mean 88mmFLAK followed by 88mmPAK and perhaps then by Tiger 88mmL56. Stats like this could be largely dictated by terrain and conditions. Battle slike kursk where visability is limited would also limit kill ranges as an example.
"Red Army Handbook 1939-1945", by S. J. Zaloga and L. S. Ness, 1998 (Alan Sutton, Thrupp) gives on page 179 a table of the ranges in metres at which Soviet tanks and assault guns were knocked out by 75mm and 88mm guns in 1943-44, as follows
Range_______75mm gun_____88mm gun
100-200_______10.0%_________4.0%
200-400_______26.1%________14.0%
400-600_______33.5%________18.0%
600-800_______14.5%________31.2%
800-1000_______7.0%________13.5%
1000-1200______4.5%_________8.5%
1200-1400______3.6%_________7.6%
1400-1600______0.4%_________2.0%
1600-1800______0.4%_________0.7%
1800-2000______0.0%_________0.5%
The original has omitted the line for 600-800 metres, so I have calculated the entries for that line by subtracting the sum of each column from 100%.
http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum ... 00067.html
"Red Army Handbook 1939-1945", by S. J. Zaloga and L. S. Ness, 1998 (Alan Sutton, Thrupp) gives on page 179 a table of the ranges in metres at which Soviet tanks and assault guns were knocked out by 75mm and 88mm guns in 1943-44, as follows
Range_______75mm gun_____88mm gun
100-200_______10.0%_________4.0%
200-400_______26.1%________14.0%
400-600_______33.5%________18.0%
600-800_______14.5%________31.2%
800-1000_______7.0%________13.5%
1000-1200______4.5%_________8.5%
1200-1400______3.6%_________7.6%
1400-1600______0.4%_________2.0%
1600-1800______0.4%_________0.7%
1800-2000______0.0%_________0.5%
The original has omitted the line for 600-800 metres, so I have calculated the entries for that line by subtracting the sum of each column from 100%.
http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum ... 00067.html
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Yoozername
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RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
http://www.chsk.com/steppenwolf/tiger1.htm
The Tiger I could immediately open fire for effect at enemy tanks at ranges of up to 1200 meters. At ranges greater than 1200 meters, bracketing was to be employed with jumps of 200 or 400 meters, switching to fire for effect when within 100 meters of a tank target. The expected performance from a Tiger I on a practice range was that the gunner would hit the target by the fourth round at ranges between 1200 and 2000 meters, In exceptional cases an individual Tiger I could fire at stationary enemy tanks at ranges up to 2500 meters.
Concentrated fire from the platoon could be used to engage stationary tanks out to 3000 meters. The same rules applied for firing against moving targets: immediate fire for effect up to 1200 meters, and bracketing to 2000 meters. But the Tiger I was not to fire at moving targets at ranges greater than 2000 meters. The expected performance of a Tiger I gunner on a practice range was one hit out of three rounds fired within 30 seconds at a tank traveling 20 kilometers per hour across the front at ranges from 800 to 1200 meters.
The Tiger I could immediately open fire for effect at enemy tanks at ranges of up to 1200 meters. At ranges greater than 1200 meters, bracketing was to be employed with jumps of 200 or 400 meters, switching to fire for effect when within 100 meters of a tank target. The expected performance from a Tiger I on a practice range was that the gunner would hit the target by the fourth round at ranges between 1200 and 2000 meters, In exceptional cases an individual Tiger I could fire at stationary enemy tanks at ranges up to 2500 meters.
Concentrated fire from the platoon could be used to engage stationary tanks out to 3000 meters. The same rules applied for firing against moving targets: immediate fire for effect up to 1200 meters, and bracketing to 2000 meters. But the Tiger I was not to fire at moving targets at ranges greater than 2000 meters. The expected performance of a Tiger I gunner on a practice range was one hit out of three rounds fired within 30 seconds at a tank traveling 20 kilometers per hour across the front at ranges from 800 to 1200 meters.
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Yoozername
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RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
http://www.iremember.ru/tankers/bodnar/bodnar.htm
- A.D. Did you fire a 45 mm gun?
Of course.
- A.D. At what kind of target? Moving or stationary?
Both stationary and moving. We performed various exercises. "Firing in defense" - this is when a tank had been dug in, distance was checked, a reference point supplied, in order to have good target lines, the tank itself was concealed. Then the target appearing in the area of the reference point is struck with the first shot.
In an offensive, firing is conducted both during short stops and on the move. When you are firing from a "short", the commander orders the driver, "Short." The driver stops the tank, and the commander counts to himself, "twenty-one, twenty-two, twenty-three." At that time he should be able to aim the gun at the target, determine the speed of the target, if it's moving, make a correction in the gun's sight and make the shot. If you stay more than 3-4 seconds in one spot - you will be hit by the enemy yourself. Firing on the move is not very effective and is usually aimed in the general vicinity of the target.
- A.D. Did you fire a 45 mm gun?
Of course.
- A.D. At what kind of target? Moving or stationary?
Both stationary and moving. We performed various exercises. "Firing in defense" - this is when a tank had been dug in, distance was checked, a reference point supplied, in order to have good target lines, the tank itself was concealed. Then the target appearing in the area of the reference point is struck with the first shot.
In an offensive, firing is conducted both during short stops and on the move. When you are firing from a "short", the commander orders the driver, "Short." The driver stops the tank, and the commander counts to himself, "twenty-one, twenty-two, twenty-three." At that time he should be able to aim the gun at the target, determine the speed of the target, if it's moving, make a correction in the gun's sight and make the shot. If you stay more than 3-4 seconds in one spot - you will be hit by the enemy yourself. Firing on the move is not very effective and is usually aimed in the general vicinity of the target.
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Yoozername
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RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
Table 2. Losses of the T-34s depending of the German gun calibres. Period Losses, %
20 mm 37 mm 50 mm L42+ 50 mm L60 75 mm 88 mm*
Prior September 1942
4.7___10_____7.5+_______54.3______10.1____3.4*
Stalingrad operation, 1942-1943
0______0 _____25.6+______26.5______12.1____7.8*
Kursk Battle, the Central Front, 1943
0______0______10.5+______23________40.5____26*
Not sure if the Soviets really could have determined a stat like these with such precision, but very interesting (I would believe it is a German stat actually). Note that 88s (*) are not the tank killer most assume. Either not used in large enough numbers, or just used defnsively, it doesn't show up till Kursk.
Evidently the 50mmL42 (+) could and did take out T34s. I suspect that AP40 shots and flank attacks with AP39 did work.
20 mm 37 mm 50 mm L42+ 50 mm L60 75 mm 88 mm*
Prior September 1942
4.7___10_____7.5+_______54.3______10.1____3.4*
Stalingrad operation, 1942-1943
0______0 _____25.6+______26.5______12.1____7.8*
Kursk Battle, the Central Front, 1943
0______0______10.5+______23________40.5____26*
Not sure if the Soviets really could have determined a stat like these with such precision, but very interesting (I would believe it is a German stat actually). Note that 88s (*) are not the tank killer most assume. Either not used in large enough numbers, or just used defnsively, it doesn't show up till Kursk.
Evidently the 50mmL42 (+) could and did take out T34s. I suspect that AP40 shots and flank attacks with AP39 did work.
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Yoozername
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RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
I read on the CMBB forum that a poster thinks Antitank Rifles could target and hit men or guns at 1000 yds. This is ridiculous. These weapons are hand held (not good platforms) and use iron sights. I am quite amazed at what some wargamers think is possible.
A german 20mm tank gun would have a hard time of it.
A german 20mm tank gun would have a hard time of it.
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Yoozername
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RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ght6qu.png
Here is a StuG gunsight. Note that it has leveling bubble for elevation and a cross level knob.
On a AFV on non-flat terrain, this ability to level the gun out is critical. Unlike guns that are emplaced and leveled when doing so, an AFV moves and would have to adjust the sight when stopping to fire.
Some sources state that cant (or roll) can only be adjusted so much. If not adjusted, the first round is going to go flying right or left of the target. Firing from a quick stop (tactic where the vehicle stops, fires one round and moves on) would not allow such an adjustment.
The one saving detail is that rounds that are left and right of the target are easily sensed and accounted for. A good commander and gunner can null out the error by the 2nd and possibly 3rd shot. This is because most every gun has very small deviation in breadth compared to length errors. But first round accuracy is effected still the same.
Other interesting item is that StuG uses an electrical firing system. This is advantageous over a firing pin system especially when firing on a moving target that you are leading.
Here is a StuG gunsight. Note that it has leveling bubble for elevation and a cross level knob.
On a AFV on non-flat terrain, this ability to level the gun out is critical. Unlike guns that are emplaced and leveled when doing so, an AFV moves and would have to adjust the sight when stopping to fire.
Some sources state that cant (or roll) can only be adjusted so much. If not adjusted, the first round is going to go flying right or left of the target. Firing from a quick stop (tactic where the vehicle stops, fires one round and moves on) would not allow such an adjustment.
The one saving detail is that rounds that are left and right of the target are easily sensed and accounted for. A good commander and gunner can null out the error by the 2nd and possibly 3rd shot. This is because most every gun has very small deviation in breadth compared to length errors. But first round accuracy is effected still the same.
Other interesting item is that StuG uses an electrical firing system. This is advantageous over a firing pin system especially when firing on a moving target that you are leading.
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Yoozername
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RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
Just want to throw out a couple more things...
Machine gun as range finder.
The coaxial MG was often used as a range finder in AFV. In many cases, the MG shot fall was similar to the main weapon's due to a similar velocity. Some accounts describe TC firing up likely approaches and landmarks and making quick sketches to ascertain ranges. Typically this was good out to 500-800 meters or so. A very good account of this is in Armor Battles of the Waffen SS. A panther TC shoots up terrain features and makes notes on the ranges. He quickly repulses a tank counter attack moving across his front.
So a MG can be used to 'survey in' the terrain before hand and also to quickly engage the enemy by first firing the MG tracer rounds till strikes are registered, then engaging the enemy with the main weapon with the range information gained. At longer ranges, it is not worthwhile and would only give away your own position.
Burst on Target.
A quick method of following up a first round attempt is called burst on target. In this method the firer notes where the burst is in relation to the target in his sight. He then moves the target over to where he last saw the burst on his sight. Its a very effective means to quickly adjust in the second round. It is very dependant on seeing the burst and is more effective when HE shooting since seeing a AP 'burst' is not that easy (solid shot might just kick up dust). Its also more effective in non-flat terrain where distance might be percieved better.
Machine gun as range finder.
The coaxial MG was often used as a range finder in AFV. In many cases, the MG shot fall was similar to the main weapon's due to a similar velocity. Some accounts describe TC firing up likely approaches and landmarks and making quick sketches to ascertain ranges. Typically this was good out to 500-800 meters or so. A very good account of this is in Armor Battles of the Waffen SS. A panther TC shoots up terrain features and makes notes on the ranges. He quickly repulses a tank counter attack moving across his front.
So a MG can be used to 'survey in' the terrain before hand and also to quickly engage the enemy by first firing the MG tracer rounds till strikes are registered, then engaging the enemy with the main weapon with the range information gained. At longer ranges, it is not worthwhile and would only give away your own position.
Burst on Target.
A quick method of following up a first round attempt is called burst on target. In this method the firer notes where the burst is in relation to the target in his sight. He then moves the target over to where he last saw the burst on his sight. Its a very effective means to quickly adjust in the second round. It is very dependant on seeing the burst and is more effective when HE shooting since seeing a AP 'burst' is not that easy (solid shot might just kick up dust). Its also more effective in non-flat terrain where distance might be percieved better.
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Yoozername
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RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
http://www.twenot.nl/cuckoo.htm
I have read of thsi British use of Panther before. It could target windows of buildings at some range. I will try to find that info on anther website.
I have read of thsi British use of Panther before. It could target windows of buildings at some range. I will try to find that info on anther website.
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Erik Rutins
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- Location: Vermont, USA
- Contact:
RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
I thought I should note here that we did a good bit of follow up research on this question. As a result we ended up increasing in-game accuracy by about 20% in most cases. While we don't agree 100% with some of the calculations being extrapolated to combat accuracy, we agreed that the base accuracy we were working with was too low. I've pasted in the revised Panzer IV stats for your info.
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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
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Yoozername
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RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
What happens beyond 1200m? Hit 'chance' stay the same? Penetration stays the same? That isn't the maximum range of the weapon I hope.
And yes, the 'chance' is still too small. What sources did you use?
And yes, the 'chance' is still too small. What sources did you use?
RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
the to-hit rolls look very much like an old wwII minitures game I use to play Panzer war by Steven Lorenz
http://panzer-war.com/
http://panzer-war.com/
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Erik Rutins
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- Contact:
RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
beastttt,
That's correct! With Steven's permission we adapted Panzer-War as the basis for Panzer Command. There are many differences, but it will definitely look familiar.
Regards,
- Erik
That's correct! With Steven's permission we adapted Panzer-War as the basis for Panzer Command. There are many differences, but it will definitely look familiar.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
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e_barkmann
- Posts: 1292
- Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Adelaide, Australia
RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
I am a tad surprised that a wargame dev house are porting someone elses figures into their own game.
and heh, what's with the feind stuff, both Koios and Panther are most concerned about the enemy listening to what's being said!
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Marc von Martial
- Posts: 5292
- Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Bonn, Germany
- Contact:
RE: Gun Accuracy in PC
ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant
and heh, what's with the feind stuff, both Koios and Panther are most concerned about the enemy listening to what's being said!
No it is me, not them [;)]
