WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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BaitBoy
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion

Post by BaitBoy »

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Actually for WitP II my preference would be to drop the concept of "base hexes" and "non-base hexes" entirely. Airfields and ports would be able to exist in any hex, or be built in any hex (within reason).


I like this idea. It should not be easy to build an airfield in the midle of nowhere, but it should be posible if the player wants to take the time and effort to do do. A building cost based on the terain type would be good too. It is easier to build an airfield on a flat plain than on the side of a mountain. . .
"You go over there and attract their attention while I . . . "

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witpqs
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

9. Retreats
a. This system will of course require retreats, Just like in current WITP, a retreat immediately displaces the retreating forces 60 miles away. The attacker then must traverse this distance before he can again engage the enemy. This is obviously an abstraction, but a non-same-hex system will enable to forces causing the retreat to be able to engage immediately. So now we must be attune to the problem of successive combats by a stronger force against a weaker force allowing an advance that is too rapid. I’ll leave it to the developer to work out how to deal with this problem.

Suggestion that does away with the teleporting: When a unit is retreating, its status is 'Retreating to xxx,yyy'. How many turns it remains in this state depends upon terrain & movement issues. Same for the units that cause the retreat - 'Advancing to xxx,yyy'. Both retreating and advancing units should get some movement bonus. Possibly, additional casualties might be taken during the retreat by the retreating forces. Of course, no orders can be issued to forces that are 'Retreating' or 'Advancing'. Optionally, 'Advancing' units might be allowed to abort the advance, but should do so at the cost of giving up ZOC for the conquered hex.

Similarly, you could introduce the requirement of movement for units within a hex to get to a hexside or to the center of a hex (where the reserves are presumed to be).

It would have to be remembered that - between adjacent hexes - a unit moving from hex to hex might not have to travel 60 miles. For example, if already on the adjacent hexside, attacks & wins, the 'Advancing' state might only be 30 or 35 miles to the conquered hex center. Likewise, if on the opposite hexside prior to a movement command, the distance might be 85 or 90 miles.

Joe,

I like the basics of the system you've layed out. Seeing the same hex combat that you outlined, I think it would be far better to have both hexside and same hex combat everywhere (except one-hex islands of course). Fight to get into the hex, fight to take the hex. Only a far superior force could have a decent chance of taking a hex outright (without having to go through same-hex combat). Even then, 'Advancing' and 'Retreating' states influenced by terrain limited movement would deal nicely to slow down unrealistically advancing buzzsaws.

The comments Mogami made about the interface would be a huge benefit in managing all this.
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fairplay
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by fairplay »

A lot of players want stacking rules because of overstacking. For some atolls this may be true. But the main problem for 'normal' land hexes is 'understacking'. The size of a 60 miles hex is massively underestimated. Only to give you an idea you can see here the cauldron of Stalingrad. He fits nicely into a 60 miles hex. In the cauldron are nearly 300.000 german soldiers and allies, more than 20 divisions. Outside there was at least the same amount of soviet soldiers.



The battle in Normandy also fits into one hex (or perhaps two, depends where the grid lines are.The battle of the bulge to place in a 60 miles WITP hex, 30 allied divisions were involved in that battle. From the channel Beglium -Dutch border at the channel coast to the border of Switzerland the distance is 517 km (321 miles / 279 nautical miles). Let's be
generous and let asume that these are 7 WITP hexes. This perhaps gives a better impression about the dimensions.

Hex ownership
An artillery battalion cannot 'control' or 'own' a 60 mile hex. You need at least a division for that job. But that division cannot defend the hex. In WW2 a division could in general defend a frontline of up to 15 km / 9 miles. For a 60 miles hex this would mean at least 6 divisions. A division 'defending' in a 60 mile hex against a division of same size and quality will loose that battle. The defending division will be stretched across the whole hex. The attacking divison will concentrate in an area of its choice, will have a high numerical superiority in that place. The defending division will be destroyed piecemeal. If you assume that the defending division is concentrating its forces as well then it cannot control the hex anymore because the largest part is without troops.

Really weird is when a side 'owns' a hex by moving it through tat hex. Even without own forces your are still considered hexowner, which leads to the false conclusion that you still 'contro'the hex. When you leave a hex you will also loose the control. (This is similar with a credit card: when you take the credit card with you it is under your control. If you leave the card at home the card is out of your control. You cannot use it and you don't know what is happening to the card. It could be stolen by a burgler or your wife finds it[:(].) Assume that hex as a neutral hex because no forces are in it. If you want to cut off enemy forces that are moving in your hinterland a continuous frontline is the only solution that in real life can prevent enemy supply operations.

("We cannot drive further and deliver our supply to our troops!" "Why not?" Seven days ago a japanese artillery battalion has moved through this hex. This is a japanese hex!" "But I don't see anyone?" "That's true. They have left 2 days ago. The hex is empty. But we are not allowed to drive with supply through areas where enemy troops have been!" "Why??!!" "Don't ask, it's a rule.") When in the frontline only one hex is not covered (Distance from Ohmaha Beach to Avrances is only 48 miles) then there is no reason to prohibit enemy movement independently of the kind of enemy through that hole.

Wrong interpretation of the the effect of the hex size also leads to some strange implementations within the combat model. Forces in a contested hex can't move. An enemy attack independent of the size of the attack cancels all movement orders. The combat system prevents withdrawals. When encircled it prevents the reorganzation of onwn forces and an attempt to 'break out' of a cauldron. Disengagement and withdrawal are standard military procedures, difficult under enemy pressure, but of course possible. For unknown reasons the combat system prevents historical movement of forces.


ZOC
In WITP this is really a bad idea. The combat elements have a range with direct fire of up to 2 km / 1.3 miles. The normal field artillery has a range of up to 10 km / 6 miles into enemy territory. Especially direct fire but also indirect fire depend on visibility of the target. At night this visibility will drop to less than 1 km / .6 miles. Artillery can of course fire 'blind'but this will greatly reduce the effectiveness. But even during day combat force will not be able to 'control' the enemy within combat range. But they are able to 'influence' him. In a tactiacl game with hex sizes of 1 km / .6 miles ZOCs may be useful. In a 60 miles hex forces can move in a corridor of 48 miles without any groundbased hostile interference. The 'ZOC'doesn't make sense with 60 miles hexes and should be skipped without replacement.


The combat model works as 'intended'. Unfortunately this implementation is too far away from reality. The main issue is that on a map with strategic size tactical combat is implemented in a way that doesn't fit to the map.

For those who want to transfer WITP into the Mediterranian: the Italian Peninsula is only up to 2 hexes deep (Meditarranian to Adriatic Sea), the front from El Alamein to Quatarra depression half a WITP hex (60 km,36 miles, 32 nautical miles). From the Mediterranian to Bir Hacheim one and a half hex (157 km, 97 miles, 84 nautical miles). But normally the combat concentrated more in the coastal zone. Does anybody think that that will be fun to play? A frontal onslaught in one or two hexes? [&:]
[&:][&:][&:]

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Mike Scholl
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: treespider
ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Not a bad way to start. Any more than 1 man per 25 square yards gets NO fortification or defense bonus, and much higher casualties. Even that puts only 4 yards between foxholes. Some way of controlling the idiocy of deploying defenders shoulder-to-shoulder and having it be a good thing needs to be found.


But let's say for instance that you wanted to apply the ground combat model to different theaters and times, perhaps allowable unit density should be tied to foritification level - ala WWI, as well as, terrain type - ala certain atolls.

What "certain atolls"? Coral atolls are only a few feet above water level. You can't dig in very far without drowning, so what fortifications you can build generally sit above ground level. The more of the coral you pile up into fortifications, the less atoll you have left. These just aren't very large pieces of ground. Now certain limits would also have to be placed on the attackers..., you can't land a Corps to attack a regiment on Wake either. The attackers can be somewhat thicker on the ground because they are up and moving rather than dug in to survive bombardment, but the real advantage of superior numbers here is the constant replacement of losses so that the odds against the defenders (who can't replace theirs) constantly increase. But the scale of the battles which could be waged on these specs of land is quite limited.
1275psi
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by 1275psi »

OK, Im no expert, but what i would like should not be too hard
You click on a hex
Now a seperate screen opens -the hex is a mini map of its own -and one sees some sort of land combat that you guys knows works real well (I do not play enough games to nominate one) .
When you control 75% of the hexes in that hex , its yours.

Air combat could target individual hexes inside this hex.

No idea how to make it work, or how to do the map, but I think it would solve some problems - then again?
Anyways -30 mile hexes sound more agreeable than 60.
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: fairplay

A lot of players want stacking rules because of overstacking. For some atolls this may be true. But the main problem for 'normal' land hexes is 'understacking'. The size of a 60 miles hex is massively underestimated. Only to give you an idea you can see here the cauldron of Stalingrad. He fits nicely into a 60 miles hex. In the cauldron are nearly 300.000 german soldiers and allies, more than 20 divisions. Outside there was at least the same amount of soviet soldiers.



The battle in Normandy also fits into one hex (or perhaps two, depends where the grid lines are.The battle of the bulge to place in a 60 miles WITP hex, 30 allied divisions were involved in that battle. From the channel Beglium -Dutch border at the channel coast to the border of Switzerland the distance is 517 km (321 miles / 279 nautical miles). Let's be
generous and let asume that these are 7 WITP hexes. This perhaps gives a better impression about the dimensions.

This may apply to parts of China and India, but when it comes to Jungle terrain like Guadalcanal, New Guinea and such, I don't think you can stack like you could in Europe or the Russian steppes. Maybe I'm wrong but I think the Pacific theatre was more about controlling bases, than it was about controlling ground. Jungle isn't all that important to hold on to although you do need to cover your flanks and tail.
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by GaryChildress »

von Beanie mentioned something in the Interface discussion thread about LCUs which I think is a good idea. When a division breaks up into regiments, instead of A, B and C units name the pieces by their regiment numbers.



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fairplay
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by fairplay »

I don't have a silver bullet with that I can solve this issue. But it is an issue. I guess you are right that the Pacific theater was more about bases. But WITP has also a Burma theater and a Chinese theater. And wasn't the recapture of the Phillipines more about taking ground? These are strategic or operational considerations. Independently from them army forces have their limits. A company, a battalion, a division can only defend a certain frontline. Terrain of course has an influence on this. Jungle needs a higher force ratio than open terrain.
When you lokk at the Guadalcanal map you will realize that the defense perimeter is pretty small in comparison to the island. Also the length of the perimeter is approximately those nine miles long that I mentioned before. When in December the 1. Marine division was withdrawn 3 divison (2nd Marine, 25th Infantry and Americal) were sent to finish the job. More troops were not available., it was not a stacking problem.
Outside of the U.S. defense perimeter the Japanese movements were hindered by terrain but not by a "ZOC".
If you want to hold 6 bases on New Guinea and don't eliminate the enemy forces you need 6 divisions to defend them.
I fully concur with your opinion on stacking on islands. There are definite limits.

I have mentioned the European theater because I am covinced that many underestimate the dimension of a 60 mile hex. (The Russians had wonderful woods and swamps, the Ardennes forrests were quite dense). On Okinawa by the way the U.S. were "stacking" 4 divisions on 8 miles.
While crawling through the interet I found a page with pretty darn nice maps.(www.dean.usma.edu/history/web03/atlases ... 0index.htm ) At least the link may be useful[8|].

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The Gnome
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by The Gnome »

Hey all :) Long time no post, but I'll take a whack at this one.

One thing I'd like on all units, in this case LCU's, is an intensity level from say 1-10. This would represent how much determination the specified unit would put into accomplishing its goal. An LCU with a setting of "1", for instance, would launch either a probing attack, or a delaying action on defense. Crank it up to 10, and the unit will fight until it breaks or accomplishes the task.

I could then as a commander set a level to preserve my forces or fight to the last - depending on the situation.
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by TheElf »

Bump
IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

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dtravel
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Bump

Why?
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jolly_pillager
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by jolly_pillager »

My take on current land combat is that massing is ALWAYS advantageous. By this I mean that the disadvantages of overmassing (no flank defense etc. etc.) are not represented. As an example in a current game the Japanese have managed to trash China soundly by simply massing 10-15 divisions in one hex and moving down the rail line killing everything the Chinese try to put in the way.

The book method of dealing with this would be to give way in front of them and then pinch the salient off with your flanking units and starve them out...sadly this doesn't work because the attackers in this case are far, far too mobile on the railroads (coupled with the fact that 2 Japanese Divisions can slaughter 4 Corps of Chinese...(especially after the Chinese are fatigued from marching 120 miles through rice paddies...).

As another observation the 2-1 assault value rule causing all allied units in a base to simply die is extremely devestating. It only works into the habds of heavy overstacking...run the tanks around to establish "Zones of Control" behind a HUGE garrisson, shock attack woth your 15 Divisions, get 2-1 (barely) and suddenly you have destroyed hundreds of thousands. This is a bad design

I would suggest having the final odds determined by casualties caused (with weighting towards differnt armies to account for fanatical defense/wanton disregard for casualties) with a scalable modifier for outnumbering the enemy.

If Japanese never surrender, that's fine by me...however a Banzai charge should DESTROY all the men participating in it...assuming that the charge doesn't break the defenders. I would say that it could be treated as a Shock Attack withg the following caveat...if thenoon-Japanese troops hold after recieving it, then all the Japanese involved are killed.

Final word...units should be able to reform without this silly fragment pulling voodoo. If you have the men in the pool, a destroyed unit should be reformed 90 days after the fact (or 120 days or whatever) and draw new recruits from the pool. There MIGHT be room for an exception for command restricted units...but that might be solved by having them return in Sorebaja/Manilla...this would keep them away until the territory has been liberated. Also they should not return until there is enough in the pools to fill the unit to at least 1/3 or 1/4 strength...until then list them as "organizing" or some such. It's not like the major beligerants DIDN'T form new units in the war...so why should we be stuck wioth only the ones historically formed when our situation might not be the same as was historical.

For this to work there would need to be a realistic number of graduates from Basic training as well as some sort of manpower limit in place for each nation (you could, after all, kill them all in theory...)
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zuikaku
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by zuikaku »

Regarding the land combat... since Matrix now owns rights on the TOAW series, wouldn't be the best solution that land combat could be based on TOAW engine and air and naval combat on current WITP engine? I think leaders shouldn't be the problem as their characteristics could add or substract overall assault value and help or severe logistic problems of the particular unit.
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by Ursa MAior »

Even being a treadhead (ie Panzer fan) I'd like to see ground combat as simple as can be in a game concentrating mostly on A2A and naval issues. For me raw number of troops and some info on quality, supply and morale would be enough. Overstacking could be easily solved by giving a limit to each base (e.g Midway 3000 people should they be marines soldiers seebees whatever).

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zuikaku
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by zuikaku »

As I can see, there is no best solution for land combat model! Present model is not perfect, but it's usable! They should concentrate to give us the best naval model possible! And German raiders[:)]
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saj42
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by saj42 »

following on Joe's ideas in posts 8 and 9 above, I copied this over from the WITP II Map discussion thread.....
ORIGINAL: Tallyho!
ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Like this you mean?

The geometry gets odd at the vertices. For eg. could a unit in the yellow sector move only to 3 and 5...or also to 1,2 and 6?

Treespider's idea is being applied to Combined Arms (which has been in development for some time [;)]) Hexside sectors work well for hexside features (like bridges and minefields and fortifications etc etc) but I am not sure players will accept the idea of fighting for triangles. [:)]

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This is a neat idea to resolve the 'shock attack when crossing a river' rule.
Lets say the hexside between 3 and 4 is a river. If you are attacking from 3 into 4 - you shock attack. When you capture area 4 you have your bridgehead. Now follow on units do NOT shock attack. Simple eh [:D]

OOPS this should really be in the Land Combat thread - must put a copy in there...
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Sneer
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by Sneer »

do sth with "brave" cut off troops on non-base hex - it halts games
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by Sardaukar »

I'd like to see Ground combat changing from IGo-UGo to WeGo. That is, no Japanese first attack..and after that Allied attack but all ground combat solved in one phase. Would make lot more sense, IMHO. After all, other side should not wait with thumb in their mouth for their turn to attack...
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JWE
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by JWE »

Hi all,

Ground combat model? Hmmmm. I would look at four things; 1) LCU (unit) composition, 2) unit posture, 3) unit orientation, and 4) result calculation algorithm; they generally interrelate. Here are some brief takes on these.

1) I like, very much, the idea of assembling a unit from various component parts; you could have, or have not, high-angle artillery, AT groups, AA groups, or other support weapons; or have, or have not, force multiplier units, such as signals, transport or the like. Should be identified as “front line” (FEBA units with integral weap systems, i.e., inf squads & 81mm morts), “oriented support” (AT weaps, etc ..), “support” (arty), and “multipliers” (these reduce the time necessary to change posture and orientation)

2) Posture can be menu selectable and would be different whether the unit has been in position for a while, or is moving. Posture is like; for example, advance (to contact or not), recon (in force or not), fixing attack, deliberate attack, all out assault; delaying defense, deliberate defense, and death-or-glory (not meant to be complete).

3) Orientation (also menu selectable) depends on the (Joe, Mandrake, Tallyho!) take on hexes (above); a unit will orient straight ahead (towards/across one hex side) when moving/attacking, but will spread over a wider area (pointing towards 2 or 3 adjacent hex sides) when defending, thus giving an attacker a “local” superiority. Defending FEBA units can be divided by the algorithm so as to have a “front” on two or three hex sides, depending on the “orientation” selected. Support units (artillery, for best example) may encompass the orientation edges; artillery (depending on national characteristics, naturally) can fully concentrate behind the one unit portion “orientated” to defend against the attack vector (kinda like all of the div arty shooting in support of the one regt making the assault, or the one regt facing the enemy assault). Oriented support is just like FEBA; it is “oriented” by the player and therefore dispersed by the algorithm. Multipliers reduce the time necessary to change orientation (i.e., move the friggin reserve Bn to where it’s needed).

4) This one is tough. Whether UGO/IGO or WEGO, the algorithm should apply to the # of bodies attacking, exposure of attackers & defenders, and unit firepower. # of bodies and firepower depends on “orientation” factors. Exposure depends on a unit’s “posture”; defense from emplacements exposes little; all-out assault has maximum exposure. Both sides’ relative amounts of firepower develops an ‘interim combat result’, such as ‘pinning’, ‘disrupting’, etc .. with consequent casualties. Depending on ‘posture’, an attack may well continue even though the attacker is ‘disrupted’. Deliberate attacks may continue until the requisite # of dead is reached; then the action is broken off; counterattack or retreat for reorganization is the next option. Banzai assaults may continue until all are dead. Following the ‘interim result’ a unit (depending on ‘posture’) can proceed with ‘close engagement’. This typically results in either the attacker, or the defending unit (again dependant on ‘orientation’), being “defeated” (perhaps even annihilated). The remainder (the non-engaged, or non-oriented units) likely beat feet.

There are existing models of % casualties related to combat effectiveness. Naturally, an “interim combat” could crush an “exposed” attacking force by fire alone.

Well, that’s the very short of it.

JWE
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RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion

Post by GaryChildress »

How about this for HQ assignments:

Instead of having each arriving unit pre-assigned to an HQ, how about-- keeping the HQ assingment system, however--each arriving unit starts out unassigned at which point the player is given an initial one time chance to assign the unit to any HQ he desires free of PP charge. After the initial "free" assignment, then it would cost PPs to change the assignment.

This could be exempt for HQ units so players don't exploit the system and assign every arriving unit to the same HQ, including HQ units to make it so that there is no need to use PPs. So for instance, the HQ structure for the Kwantung army or ABDA might remain identical to the historical one, and could not be changed even with PPs. The same army HQs, corps HQs and command HQs would remain under their respective historical commands, however if a player wants to utilize the benefits of those HQs, then he would have to assign units under them or else have an HQ sitting around wasting away, contributing nothing to the war effort.
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