A Canuck in the Pacific - ADavidB vs Treespider

[denisonh]

A diamond in the rough. The Jap CVs can't be everywhere, so it was a good move. I beleive you can't be overly caustious against a very aggressive jap player. "Dance like a butterfly, sting like a bee".

Post a pic of the situation in Alaska, as I find that an intrigueing strategy for the Japs early.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: denisonh

A diamond in the rough. The Jap CVs can't be everywhere, so it was a good move. I beleive you can't be overly caustious against a very aggressive jap player. "Dance like a butterfly, sting like a bee".

Post a pic of the situation in Alaska, as I find that an intrigueing strategy for the Japs early.

The Alaska screen cap is below. I just thought of something - that second TF to the south could be a replenishment TF. In any case, I've got all those subs racing towards the action. I also don't believe that Treespider is aware of that TF that is sneaking off to the East.

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

[denisonh]

With all the options for the Japs early, I am curious why Alaska gets attention like this early.

Good reading Dave

[Grotius]

I'm also surprised about Alaska, though it sure makes for interesting reading. Not much in the way of resources there, and where does he go once has captured Anchorage?

Good going in the South Pacific. You have more guts than I do! I tend to hide my CVs, at least while they've still got those Devastators. You just proved that those things can be of use.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: denisonh

With all the options for the Japs early, I am curious why Alaska gets attention like this early.

Good reading Dave

I wonder if he is going to try the "Kamikaze Dash" for the "United States" base that is worth so many points? I've suggested this in the past. The Japanese player:

- Grabs Anchorage early and builds it up to a level 9 port to support all types of naval re-arming
- Grabs one or more of the Alaskan Panhandle bases
- Invades Vancouver
- Drops paratroops into "United States" and takes it
- Flies infantry in to hold "United States"
- Sends armored units along the road to back up the invasion
- Sends infantry to tie up US troops in Seattle
- Grabs Prince Rupert at leisure to provide backup to Vancouver

Now, I've always assumed that this would be done after the US carriers were hunted down and destroyed, and once US forces had been spread out in the Pacific. Thus you do this late in 42 so that you don't have to hold on too long until autovictory in 1943.

Sure, this is a very low probability thing, but just in case, I leave that engineering unit in "United States" to build up the fortifications, and I also leave a Air Transport squadron in San Fran so that I can fly troops into the base in case I see this happening.

On the other hand, grabbing Anchorage does squash any Allied ideas of trying raids along the Northern Route. But then, I've been spanked while trying Northern Raids so many times that I am pretty gunshy about them. [;)]

In addition, Anchorage does provide a nice convenient base for resupplying the KB if you want to keep on raiding the West Coast on a regular basis in 1942.

And if Treespider is considering attacking the Soviets, then holding Anchorage does keep me from rushing aid via the Northern Route.

All-in-all, it does give me a lot to think about. But then, having the KB way up in the North-Eastern Pacific while US Fleet CVs are sailing along happily in the South Pacific should give Treespider something to think about too. [:D]

Just imagine three or four US fleet CVs in Northern Australia with nothing around but a couple of Japanese CVEs and CVLs... [8D]

Thanks again for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I'm also surprised about Alaska, though it sure makes for interesting reading. Not much in the way of resources there, and where does he go once has captured Anchorage?

Good going in the South Pacific. You have more guts than I do! I tend to hide my CVs, at least while they've still got those Devastators. You just proved that those things can be of use.

The US CVs can hold their own against anything except the full KB, so there is no point to hiding them if you know where the KB is at and you can be somewhere else. And the US CVs are particularly useful against a Fast Transport strategy where the Japanese player is trying to stretch beyond LBA coverage.

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

[denisonh]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Spot on reference the US CVs.

I have raided Truk as the Allies with a 3 CV force while the KB was in the SRA (my opponent neglected tu put Zeros/Bombers at Truk, made him pay)

When the KB is somehwhere other than where he is trying to expand, perfect opportunity to employ your CVs and "ping em".

Just be careful to not drift too close to Truk after your presence is known, it could flip in a hurry......

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I'm also surprised about Alaska, though it sure makes for interesting reading. Not much in the way of resources there, and where does he go once has captured Anchorage?

Good going in the South Pacific. You have more guts than I do! I tend to hide my CVs, at least while they've still got those Devastators. You just proved that those things can be of use.

The US CVs can hold their own against anything except the full KB, so there is no point to hiding them if you know where the KB is at and you can be somewhere else. And the US CVs are particularly useful against a Fast Transport strategy where the Japanese player is trying to stretch beyond LBA coverage.

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

Just imagine three or four US fleet CVs in Northern Australia with nothing around but a couple of Japanese CVEs and CVLs

[Grotius]

Ah, so you're sure it's the whole KB up in Alaska? In that case, sure, go hog-wild with your own CVs -- away from his LBA, of course. But maybe he split KB?

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Ah, so you're sure it's the whole KB up in Alaska? In that case, sure, go hog-wild with your own CVs -- away from his LBA, of course. But maybe he split KB?

I'm pretty certain that the first group is only part of the KB. Treespider split the KB after the Pearl Harbor raid and had some part of it go slowly and very obviously westwards. So the odds are that he does have at least one and maybe two carriers in the Marshals. But there is also a chance that he sent them in support of his "Alaskan Adventure". I can't be certain because the second Japanese TF only gives info that there is "1" ship. I don't think that TF is a sub because I can't believe that my Catalina pilots in Dutch Harbor could spot a single sub at that distance. So until it gets closer I can't really tell what it is. But that the second Japanese TF in the Northern Pacific may also be the KB's replenishment TF. If so, I've got lots of subs heading for it. And if the replenishment TF can be sunk, Treespider's "Alaskan Adventure" could start to go wrong very fast.

The main thing holds me back at this time in the South Pacific is that there is little in the way of fuel or supplies in any of the bases. My ships have been sailing along, sucking up what is there. It allows me to cruise across and still not end up in the "red", but there isn't enough for my own "Adventuring" to go on too long.

We'll see what happens this evening.

Thanks again -

Dave Baranyi

[String]

I know I'm very fond of force concentration, but this doesn't prevent me liking those small 1-2CV battles and 1-2BB battlegroups in action. Much more like ww2 than the usual deathstars.

Very interesting AAR, I cant wait for the next update.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: String

I know I'm very fond of force concentration, but this doesn't prevent me liking those small 1-2CV battles and 1-2BB battlegroups in action. Much more like ww2 than the usual deathstars.

Very interesting AAR, I cant wait for the next update.

It's an interesting choice for the Japanese player during the first month of the game - mass together an unstoppable force and take things slowly, systematically and "inevitably", or spread out and establish a fast outer perimeter of key bases in the knowledge that once a base is taken, the Allies can't really take it back in the near future. But that second option does allow the Allies to go "TF Hunting" since the KB is pretty much out of position for a few weeks and does have to go back to a major port for supplies and replacements.

On the other hand, the Allies don't really have any opportunity for useful force concentration during the first year of the war, and if an Allied player isn't careful with his forces that period can be extended out quite a lot.

Treespider went off to a 24 hour work period yesterday afternoon, so even when he gets back later today I expect that he will go directly to bed and sleep instead going to the game, regardless of how tempting it is to "...do just one turn." [;)]

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

December 16, 1941 -

Treespider wrote that he got a "little revenge". He obviously enjoys understatement. It turns out that I didn't have two days, I only had one. A large portion of the KB (90 TBs and 90 DBs worth) wiped out my little cruiser TF in Rabaul harbor. Obviously the TF that went west from the Hawaiian Islands wasn't just a decoy. Fortunately, I had decided to send the Lexington TF off for some fuel and supplies, otherwise they would have been caught in that debacle too.

At the same time the Japanese carriers in the Northern Pacific rendezvoused with the second TF to the South. So that second TF is undoubtedly a replenishment TF. Is the carrier TF in the Northern Pacific just there for "nuisance value", or is Treespider actively pursuing a policy of aggressively hunting all Allied ships? That's an intriguing thought. The Allies have no air power that can stop the KB in the first few months of the game. And in particular, the Allied LBA is pretty much useless against the KB, particularly in a non-PDU game like this.

So what does one do if the KB keeps on sailing along, hunting TFs instead of supporting invasions? Even a split KB is more than a match for anything the Allies can put forward for the first few months of the War. I've already lost a lot more ships in this game than I usually do in a game-year. And without ships there is no way to start to recover. This match is going to take a lot of thinking since it is different from anything I've had to face in the past with other PBEM games.

Most everything else in the Air or on the Sea also went in Treespider's favor this turn. My ASW was totally ineffective and my Brit and Dutch air units in the DEI and Malaya are too tired out to stand up to any opposition. And Japanese subs continue to show up everywhere.

The only thing that is working out okay is the land effort, and that is mainly because Treespider is attacking widely rather than massing forces. So, the following occurred:

- Naga held up to another deliberate attack
- Changsha endured an artillery attack
- Chinese troops at the crossroads south of Wuchow were attacked but held easily
- Hong Kong stood up to a shock attack!!! (I have no idea how.)
- The Admiralty Islands were captured
- Kuantan endured an artillery attack

Dave Baranyi

[denisonh]

I think that you need to guage the threat from the KB as factor in conducting any offensive operations.

He surprised you and it cost you a little. Anyhting you can do to "slow up" Tresspider by actively defending where you can.

Risk management.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: denisonh

I think that you need to guage the threat from the KB as factor in conducting any offensive operations.

He surprised you and it cost you a little. Anyhting you can do to "slow up" Tresspider by actively defending where you can.

Risk management.

I haven't yet gotten used to Treespider's style - he is a lot more aggressive than other players that I've gone against. That gives me opportunities, but it also increases my risks significantly. So while some of my standard responses are doing okay, a number of them haven't worked.

My main problem is that I've been counting on a "day or two" more to operate than Treespider has been giving me. He must be running all of his ships full out all the time to move around as fast as he does. And he hasn't been going back to major bases for "pit stops". This means that when I've "counted" on Japanese forces to be one place, they are actually a lot nearer than I expect. (To a good extent, I'm having the same difficulties that the Allied Command had for real in WW II.)

On the other hand, I've been deliberately trying to avoid rushing all over in order to minimize sys damage and the associated increase in detection levels. So, for example, if I had sent my subs out of Manila at full speed they would have been in position to let me know of the Japanese TF movements in the Central Pacific. But I deliberately let the subs go out at mission speed in order to minimize sys damage accumulation and missed out.

Treespider has also used his subs extremely well to keep track of my movements. Japanese subs are everywhere in the Central and South Pacific, and he has been using them like crazy to mine my ports in the DEI. All this has kept me off balance and caused me to react more than I like.

So, as I said, I need to reconsider my responses and figure out ways to take advantage of the way that Treespider is playing while not leaving easy opportunities for him. If I just try to run and hide, Treespider will be trapping me in no time. I need to figure out how to get "behind" him instead in order to catch his forces out of position.

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB
I need to figure out how to get "behind" him instead in order to catch his forces out of position.

Hi Dave,

Against a very aggressive opponent like Treespider, you have to assume he is going for everything you have as fast as he can (figuring out in what order he’ll do it is the hard part). Therefore don’t try slow buildups at isolated bases or clever moves that’ll just end up costing you some CV’s if KB unexpectedly shows up.

Aggressive players view any buildup of allied forces they see as victory point opportunities, so assume anything you send out there is going to get stomped, so don’t send it unless you can send enough to the base to seriously oppose KB. If you can’t, Treespider WILL show up and take the points you offer him, so better to lose an empty base than the base + several thousands of troops.

I’d build up in the rear and spend the next month or so trying to get a read on Treespider’s goals. He can’t be everywhere at once, and if he tries to be, he’ll leave himself exposed for a punishing counter-thrust by you. But don’t try to out guess him and pre-position your forces, just hunker down where you know you are safe and build up in the rear and only react when you KNOW it’s reasonably safe to expose your limited combat assets.

His aggressive style almost guarantees you’ll see deep raids into your shipping lanes on a regular basis, so be careful. One or two big supply convoys sunk can doom your ability to counter-attack till well into 1944. I’d also not put it past him to show up at Ceylon/Perth/Auckland etc. and try a port attack to possibly catch your CV’s at anchor, so be very careful not to get complacent and assume you’re safe just because the base is deep in your rear.

Keep your CV’s in task forces at their bases with reaction turned on if they don’t need any yard time. And move them often, he’ll find them with his subs eventually if you leave them idle too long, Treespider makes very good use of his subs (I started two different PBEM’s with him, but we didn’t play ether very long due to game bugs).

So for now I’d simply try to save as much stuff as you can and try to bog him down with long sieges in the Philippines or Malaya. Those are the only real opportunities you have to slow down the timetable of a very aggressive opponent other than a lucky strike like you had at Rabaul. If he takes those areas early, you had best be prepared for an invasion in India or Australia as Treespider’s aggressive style almost assures he’s going for one or the other if he can. I’d have an eye to those two possibilities right now and forgo any aggressive moves on your part until you feel those two countries are reasonably defended.

Jim

[ADavidB]

Against a very aggressive opponent like Treespider, you have to assume he is going for everything you have as fast as he can (figuring out in what order he’ll do it is the hard part). Therefore don’t try slow buildups at isolated bases or clever moves that’ll just end up costing you some CV’s if KB unexpectedly shows up...

Hi Jim -

Thanks for all the good advice. Right now I'm not trying to set up any forward bases, just pull back troops that I don't want to lose. Treespider is doing a good job of keeping me from doing that.

But I'm on the lookout for opportunities to hit his replenishment TFs. Right now he doesn't have any forward bases from which to refuel the pieces of the KB that are sailing around. If I can get him to go a little too far I might be able to pull off a couple more surprises in the near term. Of course, once he sets up properly it will tougher, but we'll have to see what sorts of traps I can set.

There are other things that I have to get used to, such as the changes in the Malarial areas. Previously I could count on most of the Northern Australian bases to be malarial deathtraps and ignore them - I can't really do that right now.

Oh well, live and learn...[;)]

Thanks again -

Dave

[ADavidB]

December 17, 1941 -

Treespider commented that this turn was "quiet but significant", and I responded to him that "significant" for him usually means "painful" for me… [X(] But Treespider was right, things were relatively quieter on the Sea and in the Air, although Japanese forces made good progress on the Land.

On the Seas, there was a bit of tit-for-tat sub action with a couple of my subs damaged by Japanese escorts. One Japanese PG was torpedoed and another Japanese AK sank from old damage. The Japanese sub-based Glens were active again in the South Pacific and West Coast. Allied ASW not only didn't attack any Japanese subs, they couldn't even find most of the ones that were launching Glens.

The Air War took a different turn. Treespider sent a large air attack against Changsha, taking some damage from the defenders, but causing significant runway damage. At the same time my B-17s hit Kuching and caused a nice little bit of damage on the air fields, including some damaged planes. Treespider also started to try to use Zero-sweeps to attack my air fields. I think that he was surprised to find no Allied fighters at several front line DEI air bases.

In the Ground War the big news was that the Japanese captured Kuantan, Singkawang and Vigan. Alor Star, Changsha, Hong Kong and Naga were all bombarded.

In the area of "What was I thinking? <[X(]>", although one of my preparatory "sneaky moves" appeared to work out well, a couple of follow-up moves of damaged ships may well have given away the show. I've been trying to move in unexpected directions in order to keep Treespider from guessing my intentions too easily, but I have also been "out-thinking myself" a bit. Next turn ought to let me know if I've made a "Brilliant Move" or another "Oh My Gawd, What an Idiotic Move". [:D]

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

December 18, 1941 -

Treespider commented that the weather was "clear for a change". At this stage of the Game, clear is "not good" for the Allied forces, and sure enough, Japanese air power was felt very strongly this turn. Treespider sent heavy air attacks on Changsha, Singapore and Manila and also sent strong Zero-sweeps. In response I started to move back some of my heavily fatigued and low morale air units, although I moved fresh Chinese air units back into Changsha.

Treespider is doing yet another thing that is quite unexpected to me; he has five ground units at Luang Prabang and is building up the air base, which is already up to level 2. I've never seen anyone do that before. That base is in the middle of nowhere and doesn't connect directly to any of my bases in Burma or China. But it does threaten the Burma Road by Air. I wonder; is Treespider planning to use the air base at Luang Prabang to bomb my bases, or is he considering paratroop drops at the bases along the Burma Road? I have troops on their way to all of my key Burma Road bases, but thanks to the Movement Rules, they will still take a couple more weeks to get there. Hmmm, maybe I ought to put some CAP in place over the bases which only have base forces right now.

In the Naval War, Japanese ships are still clearing mines out of the harbors at Saigon and Camranh Bay, and a Japanese APD "cleared" one of those mines by hitting it. The escorts from an incoming transport TF just offshore of San Fran hit a Japanese sub a few times; with any luck the sub will have to limp home and be out of my hair for a while. And in an encounter that must have had Treespider momentarily holding his breath, S-28 had a shot at the Soryu as the Japanese carrier TF left the Aleutians, but missed.

My "big risk/big goof (?)" from last turn went "okay" this turn. One more turn and I ought to be home free. Of course, there is always a price to be paid for poor planning in this Game, and I paid it again this turn as the main part of the KB pounded the transport ships in the port of Rabaul. It doesn't appear that I will be getting the troops out of Rabaul this time.

In the Ground War, Hong Kong finally fell. I don’t think that I've ever held it so long. Treespider had to move three additional units in to help with the attack. An empty Tavoy also fell. I think that Treespider doesn't have a base force unit nearby, so I may get a few days respite before he can support air operations out of there. Never-the-less, I am repositioning my Air assets in the Burmese Theater in order to confront the inevitable air attacks. In other Ground news, Naga and Alor Star held against deliberate attack again while Changsha was bombarded once more. Treespider now has a lot of field artillery units at Changsha.

Dave Baranyi

[denisonh]

I think the HK problem could be attributed to the down side of Shock attacks. Failed ones really can disrupt and disable an attacking force.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: denisonh

I think the HK problem could be attributed to the down side of Shock attacks. Failed ones really can disrupt and disable an attacking force.

True, and he initially attacked with only one unit, which was insufficient. One needs to take Hong Kong sufficiently seriously as the Japanese player or else one wastes a fair amount of time.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi