Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: wosung
Sorry, I was tired.
Last 3 ones in Manchuria: Hsingan, Hsinking, Harbin data are cited from (Manchurian) Handbook of Information 1933.

Thanks, and no worries.

Hsinking = "New capital": (Shenyang)

I thought that Changchun (on the WiF FE map) was Hsinking (on the WWII maps I have). Am I wrong ?
And I thought that Shenyang (modern name) was Mukden (WWII name). Am I wrong ?

Yep, You're right on that. I switched the names, while posting.
Sorry again![:D]

I'm sorry, but could you post the list of Manchurian cities again, I'm all mixed up in my head here.

[wosung]

It's confusing, because we're dealing with: Russian, Manchurian and different Chinese names. Somtimes for the same places [&:]

WW 2 (new Pinyin)
Hsingan (Xingan) 920k: be careful with that one. Can't find it on a map. Probably it's NOT a City.
Harbin / Pinkiang (Ha'erbin) 330k
Hsinking = "New capital": (Changchun) 126k
Newchwang (Niuzhuang) 106k
Hunchun (Hunchun) 39k
Mukden (Shenyang)330k-553k, depends on source

According to my 1935 China map other important/big cities in Manchuria were:

Jehol Province
Chengteh (Chengde) provincial capital

Kirin Province
Kirin (Jilin) provincial capital

Heilungkiang Province
Tsitsihar / Lungkiang (Qiqihar) provincial capital.

Don't know about their population.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Eventually I am going to want the graphics artist to create an overlay of the rivers and lakes to go with what you are defining for the China map.  For that purpose, it would be nice to have a single map that he could use.  The less detail the map contains, the better.  So, it should show the rivers we want clearly, with some reference points for: hex of origin, where it enters the sea, where it flows into a lake or another river, and points where it changes direction.  Of course, not all of these will have reference points.  I am merely mentioning the key locations the artist will have to determine one way or another.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The black lines on this map dont look like roads (brown) ... what are they?

Thanks

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Patrice is using brown to indicate roads.  The black are hand drawn rail lines.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Patrice is using brown to indicate roads.  The black are hand drawn rail lines.

Yes, I'm working with a semi professional painting program, and when new railways are to be drawn, I don't know how to reproduce the MWiF rails. So I draw a black line 2 pixels wide.

[Froonp]

Incy, I did not ignore you nor forgot you. I just had to digest more tons of comments [;)].

Incy> -In the recently added central mountain chain, there is a gap in the center that I don't think warrants mountains (hex NE of Nanyang).
In this area, there are wide stretches of farmland with a little "mountain" here and there.
ullern> Agree with Incy on the area north of Nanyang is relativly flat and open, but is still much higher than the areas further north and south. What about forest instead of mountain?
Froonp> I'm happy you say that. From the start I suspected that this gap should exist.

Incy> -northern rivers: Whoa, that was a bit more than I envisioned, I was imagining trimming the rivers a bit I think a shourt river on either side of Tientsin might be warranted ?
ullern> I think removing the rivers made perfect sense...
Froonp> I'm adding a river hexside north of Tientsin, only because it has a river hexside on the WiF FE map )

Incy> -Shijazhuang sure looks like a quite big city, it's about two hexes west of Taiyuan and SW of Paoding (it looks bigger than Paoding).
Froonp> It is out of the picture, it was created in the 50s.

Incy> -Paoding should be wurther east. Relatively to Peking, it'¨s more south than west
Froonp> I agree. Did it.

Incy> -Mountains next to Peking should run southwest, not west. I suggest hex W and 2 hexes W of Peking should be mountain, maybe hex where Paoding is (was) and west of it too.
Froonp> I agree too. I added 3 Mountain hexes. Not as much as you asked for.

Incy> -Shantou (2-3 hexes on the coast east of Canton) and Dianquian (further east) seem quite large, and also look like a very good ports.
Both also has a lot of heavily populated areas around it. Deserves a port (or maybe a city?). Note that the populated areas here just go a bit inland, then comes large swaths of mountains. Dianquian is actually a small island.
Froonp> I prefer add nothing east of Canton. Just for my records, what would be the 40s names of these, Wosung. For me the first would be Swatow, but the second ?

Incy> -Kunming has a series of lakes south of it, might deserve a lake hexside
Froonp> They are too small to deserve a lake hexside. My basis here is that a hex is about 90 km wide. So a lake has to be something close to that to appear as an hexside.

Incy> -hex between lake and resource near Sining should be clear/forest?
Froonp> Geographical maps only show mountains there.

Incy> -3 hexes surrounded by river in the north look a bit strange. I can see why they're there, but maybe model it as swamp, or maybe have fewer river hexsides ? The easternmost hexside could be a lake.
Froonp> I was puzzled too when I saw them, but I think they depict the area wuite well. This is no swamp, this is only the Yellow River (what is its chinese name by the way Wosung ?) that branches off and join again multiples times.

Incy> -mountains SE of Tsinan seem to small, what about making hex NW of Suchow and hex E of Tsianan mountain (or at least forest)
Froonp> I agree and I waited for this remark from the start. Being minimalist as Steve, I said nothing until someone else spotted it too. I added one mountain hex NE of Suchow. The maps warrant this. In the other places, where the rails passes, the maps show that the rails are outside the hilly terrain.

Incy> -The area between Han Kiang and Yangzee seems to have way to good terrain. My suggestion:
Hex NW+W of Wuhan (east of Han Kiang): clear->Mountain
Hex west of that: clear->forest
Hex west of that: clear->mountain
Hex west of that: forest->mountain
Hex NE of that: clear->mountain
Hex NW of that: clear->forest (linking up to forest north of river)
Froonp> I agree that it seems there is too much good terrain, but I think that the mountains here are not elevated enough or broken enough to warrant all that. Also, those modifications would widden the mountain between Wuhan & Chungking too much. What do you think for this place others ? Wosung ? Nils ?

Incy> -The mountain area west of the railroad between Canton and Changsha seems to have large areas of easier terrain in it.
My suggestion:
Hexes NW, SW of resource: mountain->forest
hex W of resource: mountain clear/forest (rugged but better than neighbouring "hills")
Hexes W & SW of Changsha: clear->forest (could be mountains too but not rugged enough)
Froonp> I think that the fact that the area is easier as you say is already shown on the map by the "valley" of 3 forest Hexes (1 hex is about 90 km) along which the railways goes. I think this area is good as it is.

Incy> -I think Kunming should be placed one hex SW, it's to close to Chungking and Kweiang.
Froonp> I think that you were completely right here. I measured the distances between Kunming and the neighboring cities :
Kunming-Hanoi : about 550 km --> 6 hexes. It is 6 hexes on the map.
Kunming-Chungking : about 625 km --> 7 hexes. It is 5 hexes on the map.
Kunming-Kweiyang : about 435 km --> 5 hexes. It is 4 hexes on the map.
So now I think that moving it where youindicate put it at the right place.
I had to redraw the Burma Road there too (the northwards bend it takes to exit Kunming is historical.
I had to move the Alpine hexside slightly southwards, and it is ok on the real maps.
I had to redraw the rail from Hanoi too.

Incy> -Kweiyang area has way to nice terrain, there isn't much terrain in the area that should be better than forest. Kweiyang itself should at least be forest and maybe mountain. The hex E and W of it should be mountain. The hex SE probably also. Hex SW is closer to forest. Hex NE could qualify as clear, the hex east of that is forest at best. 2 hexes E of Kweiyang is forest (or mountain).
Froonp> I agree with you on the general picture, but as for the area west of Wuhan, I'm reluctant to change it, because the WiF FE map has a full clear hex here, and this is quite important. What do you think for this place others ? Wosung ? Nils ?

Will be posting pictures soon after.

[Froonp]

North zone. Nearly nothing changed.
I changed the lake's color, hopping they are better seen.

[Froonp]

Coastal zone.
The Peking area is better. The Nanyang gap is fine.

[Froonp]

South area.
Kunming is better now.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

You know, looking at the new maps for China and planning on how to take out the resources (as the Japanese player) makes me realize how limited the WIF FE China campaigns are.  You typically attack a hex only one or two hexes away from your current front line to capture a resource.  With the new maps, you have to plan how to cut off the enemy's supply while maintaining your own.  Simultaneously, you want to find an avenue of attack that avoids difficult terrain.  It is also necessary to capture the rail line if you want to use the resource yourself.
 
In WIF FE, I would play to take X number of resources from the Chinese.  Once the Chinese were reduced below a critical number, it was only necessary to inflict more casualties than they were capable of replacing - the war of attrition was a guaranteed way to win.  While that strategy is still viable with the new map, it requires a whole new level of operational planning that was absent previously.

[Ullern]

My turn to be detailed:
-Nanyang one hex further northwest (should be on the railway in the gap)
-The second hex west of Nanyang which have most of the label "Han Kiang" in it, should be mountain, so should all hexes west and north of that which aren't already mountains.

A pure game balance change:
-move to resource west of Tsinan one hex east? (To make it easier for Japan to get it out late game)

I'd love to try this out now....

Nils

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

You know, looking at the new maps for China and planning on how to take out the resources (as the Japanese player) makes me realize how limited the WIF FE China campaigns are.  You typically attack a hex only one or two hexes away from your current front line to capture a resource.  With the new maps, you have to plan how to cut off the enemy's supply while maintaining your own.  Simultaneously, you want to find an avenue of attack that avoids difficult terrain.  It is also necessary to capture the rail line if you want to use the resource yourself.

In WIF FE, I would play to take X number of resources from the Chinese.  Once the Chinese were reduced below a critical number, it was only necessary to inflict more casualties than they were capable of replacing - the war of attrition was a guaranteed way to win.  While that strategy is still viable with the new map, it requires a whole new level of operational planning that was absent previously.

Steve, does this mean that you find the maps as it is becoming, to be an improvement over the WiF FE pacific scalled one ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: ullern

My turn to be detailed:
-Nanyang one hex further northwest (should be on the railway in the gap)
-The second hex west of Nanyang which have most of the label "Han Kiang" in it, should be mountain, so should all hexes west and north of that which aren't already mountains.

As always, I'll see on my maps if I agree, tonight.

A pure game balance change:
-move to resource west of Tsinan one hex east? (To make it easier for Japan to get it out late game)

This one won't be posible. The resource is placed on the second railway, can't move it.

I'd love to try this out now....

Nils

To all those who would like to try it, here is a way to try it even if MWiF is not in your hands :
Tell me, and I'm sending you the full China map (JPG 2 MB), and you can print it and try it using the real WiF FE counters.
Can be a good experience.

Cheers !

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

You know, looking at the new maps for China and planning on how to take out the resources (as the Japanese player) makes me realize how limited the WIF FE China campaigns are.  You typically attack a hex only one or two hexes away from your current front line to capture a resource.  With the new maps, you have to plan how to cut off the enemy's supply while maintaining your own.  Simultaneously, you want to find an avenue of attack that avoids difficult terrain.  It is also necessary to capture the rail line if you want to use the resource yourself.

In WIF FE, I would play to take X number of resources from the Chinese.  Once the Chinese were reduced below a critical number, it was only necessary to inflict more casualties than they were capable of replacing - the war of attrition was a guaranteed way to win.  While that strategy is still viable with the new map, it requires a whole new level of operational planning that was absent previously.

Steve, does this mean that you find the maps as it is becoming, to be an improvement over the WiF FE pacific scalled one ?

Yes, very much so. It should make China play more like the land combat in Europe.

[Froonp]

ullern> -Nanyang one hex further northwest (should be on the railway in the gap)
ullern> -The second hex west of Nanyang which have most of the label "Han Kiang" in it, should be mountain, so should all hexes west and north of that which aren't already mountains.
Froonp> Having looked at the broad Nanyang area, I think that the distances Chengchow/Nanyang/Wuhan are reasonably right. What is wrong IMO is the position of this mountain chain. This is the first one I added, and with all the rest now a little twicking is needed. I added a mountain hex SE of Nanyang, a Forest hex E of Nanyang, removed the forest NE of Nanyang. I also added 2 mountain hexes W of Nanyang (but not as many as you suggested).

ullern> A pure game balance change:
-move to resource west of Tsinan one hex east? (To make it easier for Japan to get it out late game)
Froonp> I can't it is on the second railway (the first is the one closer to the sea). It is already att he real place.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Incy, I did not ignore you nor forgot you. I just had to digest more tons of comments [;)].

Incy> -In the recently added central mountain chain, there is a gap in the center that I don't think warrants mountains (hex NE of Nanyang).
In this area, there are wide stretches of farmland with a little "mountain" here and there.
ullern> Agree with Incy on the area north of Nanyang is relativly flat and open, but is still much higher than the areas further north and south. What about forest instead of mountain?
Froonp> I'm happy you say that. From the start I suspected that this gap should exist.

Area north and north east of Nanyang is 500-1000 m height, area east of the city is 100-200 m, south of it is 0-100 m.
There could be a "C" shaped mountain/forest range from the hex South east of Chengchow (IRL 500-1000 m) to the second-nearest Hex west of Wuhan (IRL 500-1000 m, peaks up to 1500-2000 m).

Incy> -northern rivers: Whoa, that was a bit more than I envisioned, I was imagining trimming the rivers a bit I think a shourt river on either side of Tientsin might be warranted ?
ullern> I think removing the rivers made perfect sense...
Froonp> I'm adding a river hexside north of Tientsin, only because it has a river hexside on the WiF FE map )

Incy> -Shijazhuang sure looks like a quite big city, it's about two hexes west of Taiyuan and SW of Paoding (it looks bigger than Paoding).
Froonp> It is out of the picture, it was created in the 50s.

Incy> -Paoding should be wurther east. Relatively to Peking, it'¨s more south than west
Froonp> I agree. Did it.

Incy> -Mountains next to Peking should run southwest, not west. I suggest hex W and 2 hexes W of Peking should be mountain, maybe hex where Paoding is (was) and west of it too.
Froonp> I agree too. I added 3 Mountain hexes. Not as much as you asked for.

Incy> -Shantou (2-3 hexes on the coast east of Canton) and Dianquian (further east) seem quite large, and also look like a very good ports.
Both also has a lot of heavily populated areas around it. Deserves a port (or maybe a city?). Note that the populated areas here just go a bit inland, then comes large swaths of mountains. Dianquian is actually a small island.
Froonp> I prefer add nothing east of Canton. Just for my records, what would be the 40s names of these, Wosung. For me the first would be Swatow, but the second ?

Yep Swatou and for Dianquan/Dianqian?? I don't know. Didn't even find it in my map-indexes. As I said before, the other historical important ports from Hongkong to Hangchow were: Swatow (Shantou), Amoy (Xiamen) and Foochow (Fuzhou), All of them were treaty ports: Opened by the West with force in 19th Century, Sino-western trade centres with western city enclaves. Note that in treaty ports (the biggest one was Shanghai) the exterritoral foreign (english, french) city parts were untouched by Japanese troops until December 7th 1941.

Incy> -Kunming has a series of lakes south of it, might deserve a lake hexside
Froonp> They are too small to deserve a lake hexside. My basis here is that a hex is about 90 km wide. So a lake has to be something close to that to appear as an hexside.

Incy> -hex between lake and resource near Sining should be clear/forest?
Froonp> Geographical maps only show mountains there.

Incy> -3 hexes surrounded by river in the north look a bit strange. I can see why they're there, but maybe model it as swamp, or maybe have fewer river hexsides ? The easternmost hexside could be a lake.
Froonp> I was puzzled too when I saw them, but I think they depict the area wuite well. This is no swamp, this is only the Yellow River (what is its chinese name by the way Wosung ?) that branches off and join again multiples times.

Name of Yellow River would be Hwangho (Huanghe) if that was the question. You could write the other river(s?) in one word: Hankiang etc. Pearl River would be Chukiang. But according to Travel Survival kit, p. 195 and 2 maps, it's the name only for the delta south of Canton. The River you labeled Pearl River would be - well Hsikiang (Xijiang = Western River)

Incy> -mountains SE of Tsinan seem to small, what about making hex NW of Suchow and hex E of Tsianan mountain (or at least forest)
Froonp> I agree and I waited for this remark from the start. Being minimalist as Steve, I said nothing until someone else spotted it too. I added one mountain hex NE of Suchow. The maps warrant this. In the other places, where the rails passes, the maps show that the rails are outside the hilly terrain.

Incy> -The area between Han Kiang and Yangzee seems to have way to good terrain. My suggestion:
Hex NW+W of Wuhan (east of Han Kiang): clear->Mountain
Hex west of that: clear->forest
Hex west of that: clear->mountain
Hex west of that: forest->mountain
Hex NE of that: clear->mountain
Hex NW of that: clear->forest (linking up to forest north of river)
Froonp> I agree that it seems there is too much good terrain, but I think that the mountains here are not elevated enough or broken enough to warrant all that. Also, those modifications would widden the mountain between Wuhan & Chungking too much. What do you think for this place others ? Wosung ? Nils ?

See above: Nanyang-gap

Incy> -The mountain area west of the railroad between Canton and Changsha seems to have large areas of easier terrain in it.
My suggestion:
Hexes NW, SW of resource: mountain->forest
hex W of resource: mountain clear/forest (rugged but better than neighbouring "hills")
Hexes W & SW of Changsha: clear->forest (could be mountains too but not rugged enough)
Froonp> I think that the fact that the area is easier as you say is already shown on the map by the "valley" of 3 forest Hexes (1 hex is about 90 km) along which the railways goes. I think this area is good as it is.

Incy> -I think Kunming should be placed one hex SW, it's to close to Chungking and Kweiang.
Froonp> I think that you were completely right here. I measured the distances between Kunming and the neighboring cities :
Kunming-Hanoi : about 550 km --> 6 hexes. It is 6 hexes on the map.
Kunming-Chungking : about 625 km --> 7 hexes. It is 5 hexes on the map.
Kunming-Kweiyang : about 435 km --> 5 hexes. It is 4 hexes on the map.
So now I think that moving it where youindicate put it at the right place.
I had to redraw the Burma Road there too (the northwards bend it takes to exit Kunming is historical.
I had to move the Alpine hexside slightly southwards, and it is ok on the real maps.
I had to redraw the rail from Hanoi too.

Incy> -Kweiyang area has way to nice terrain, there isn't much terrain in the area that should be better than forest. Kweiyang itself should at least be forest and maybe mountain. The hex E and W of it should be mountain. The hex SE probably also. Hex SW is closer to forest. Hex NE could qualify as clear, the hex east of that is forest at best. 2 hexes E of Kweiyang is forest (or mountain).
Froonp> I agree with you on the general picture, but as for the area west of Wuhan, I'm reluctant to change it, because the WiF FE map has a full clear hex here, and this is quite important. What do you think for this place others ? Wosung ? Nils ?

Will be posting pictures soon after.

Additional Comments:

What about adding the only (?) provincial capital, which is not represented on the map: Kaifeng (hex east to Chengchow)? Provincial capitals per se were important political, economical, administrative and traffic centres.

The rail northeast of Taiyuan looks quite bizzare because it ends nowhere. End station was Paotow, next Hex to the east was the bigger Kweisui (Hohot /Huhehote). Hex Northwest of Peking could be Kalgan (Zhangjiakou), then much more important then Paoting.

Regards

[Froonp]

What about adding the only (?) provincial capital, which is not represented on the map: Kaifeng (hex east to Chengchow)? Provincial capitals per se were important political, economical, administrative and traffic centres.

The rail northeast of Taiyuan looks quite bizzare because it ends nowhere. End station was Paotow, next Hex to the east was the bigger Kweisui (Hohot /Huhehote). Hex Northwest of Peking could be Kalgan (Zhangjiakou), then much more important then Paoting.

Thanks for the proposals Wosung. I added them to my Excel file of cities & terrain feature added and cities & terrain feature proposed.
Please, others, comment those cities, whether you think more would be good, or not.

I for one think that the Kaifeng city addition would be good. After all it would be just adjacent to a city already existing, so would not add much in terms of extra suplly for the chinese, but it goes the right way as to make this area a city dense area, as it is on the WiF FE map.

For the cities in the north, at the end of the rail that ends nowhere, I had put Paotow on the very first version of the map, but deleted it nearly as fast because it gives the Chinese an enormous flanking power they do not have in WiF FE.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

What about adding the only (?) provincial capital, which is not represented on the map: Kaifeng (hex east to Chengchow)? Provincial capitals per se were important political, economical, administrative and traffic centres.

The rail northeast of Taiyuan looks quite bizzare because it ends nowhere. End station was Paotow, next Hex to the east was the bigger Kweisui (Hohot /Huhehote). Hex Northwest of Peking could be Kalgan (Zhangjiakou), then much more important then Paoting.

Thanks for the proposals Wosung. I added them to my Excel file of cities & terrain feature added and cities & terrain feature proposed.
Please, others, comment those cities, whether you think more would be good, or not.

I for one think that the Kaifeng city addition would be good. After all it would be just adjacent to a city already existing, so would not add much in terms of extra suplly for the chinese, but it goes the right way as to make this area a city dense area, as it is on the WiF FE map.

For the cities in the north, at the end of the rail that ends nowhere, I had put Paotow on the very first version of the map, but deleted it nearly as fast because it gives the Chinese an enormous flanking power they do not have in WiF FE.

About Paotow, I agree with Patrice. Playing Japan, with the latest version of the northern map, I would go to take out Taiyuan to secure the resource north of it. Once that city falls, any Chinese units defending the resource will be without supply and easy to mop up. Adding Paoting to the map changes everything because then the Japanese have to fight through the mountains and those nasty alpine hexsides to take the resource and push on to Paoting to prevent future counter attacks from there.

I might suggest simply removing the spurious rail line (there is a pun here for such rail ilnes are known as 'spurs') since it doesn't add to game play whatsoever.

[Froonp]

About Paotow, I agree with Patrice. Playing Japan, with the latest version of the northern map, I would go to take out Taiyuan to secure the resource north of it. Once that city falls, any Chinese units defending the resource will be without supply and easy to mop up. Adding Paoting to the map changes everything because then the Japanese have to fight through the mountains and those nasty alpine hexsides to take the resource and push on to Paoting to prevent future counter attacks from there.

It was not my main problem, but could be. However those areas (Taiyuan & the resource and Paotow if it was on the map) are all already conquered by Japan.
The problem for me was on the Chinese Offensive.
It is common practive in WiF FE to have rapid cavalry units flank the Japanese by the north, and adding Paotow would give an extra supply source to those outflanking units who would then be in supply to flank even more easily. Moreover, reinforcements could be placed there, well, a Japanese nightmare they do not deserve, because the WiF FE map does not have such a northward placed supply source.

I might suggest simply removing the spurious rail line (there is a pun here for such rail ilnes are known as 'spurs') since it doesn't add to game play whatsoever.

I disagree for 2 reasons :
1. It is on the WiF FE map, and it has the same use here than on the WiF FE map. Convey supply from an HQ there to another HQ down the rail line.
2. It really existed, and ended at Paotow. The only concession our map should do to reality here is to disallow the extra supply source for the Chinese, but the city is supposed to be here anyway, so the rail leads to the city.