Modifications to MWiF Russia (Urals & East) Map portion

[Froonp]

Here is map 1b, in a very very very low res version, but showing the whole area I reviewed.
I'll post the 3 parts with better res after.

[Froonp]

Here is the ural part.
Sum up of the discussion here :

A. URAL REGION
1. Corrections from WiF FE maps :
- There is a piece of rail from Astrakhan between 51,76 and 46,75 should not exist. I deleted it.
- Vyatka (35,79) does not exist on WiF FE maps, but why not leave it as is. Renamed Kirov (500.000 inhabitants) (Borger).

2. Modifications proposed :
- Add Ulyanovsk (city between Kazan and Kuybyshev, 620.000 inhabitants). Along the west bank of Volga halfway between Kazan and Kuybyshev. Ulyanovsk is the city Lenin was born in, and got the name from Simbirsk in 1924 (Borger).
- Added some lake hexsides on Volga between Kazan & Kuibyshev because of very very large rivers here.
- Added some lake hexsides on Kama between Ufa & Perm because of very very large rivers here.
- Added some lake hexsides on Kama north of Perm because of very very large rivers here.

3. Proposals for Modifications
- Add Saransk (city between Kazan and Penza, 300.000 inhabitants). North and very slightly to the east of Penza (along the rail line) and where the rail line meets the north south going side river to Volga (Borger). No, it would be on the European Map (Froonp).

[Froonp]

Here is the Omsk region.
Sum up of the discussion here :

B. OMSK REGION
1. Corrections from WiF FE maps :
- Karaganda (47,93) very wrongly placed. I moved it 11 hexes SE.
- Modified both railways who lead to Karaganda.

2. Modifications proposed :
- Added Petropavlovsk (west of Omsk, 200.000 inhabitants), for supply between Omsk & Chelyabinsk.
- Added Tyumen (west of Omsk), for supply between Omsk & Chelyabinsk.
- Slightly modified rail around Omsk & Semipalatinsk.
- Moved Lake Chany 1 hex eastwards (Borger).

3. Proposals for Modifications
- Add Kurgan (west of Petropavlovsk, 335.000 inhabitants) (Borger). I prefer Petropavlovsk, and I'm not sure we can add 2 new cities (Froonp).

[Froonp]

Here is the Novosibirsk-Krasnoyarsk Region.
Sum up of the discussion here :

C. NOVOSIBIRSK-KRASNOYARSK REGION
1. Corrections from WiF FE maps :
None.

2. Modifications proposed :
- Added Tomsk (west of Krasnoyarsk), for supply between Krasnoyarsk & Novosibirsk.
- Added Akmolinsk (Astana) (Rail intersection hex north of Karaganda, 350.000 inhabitants) for supply purposes.
It's the capital of Kazakstan. This city has changed it's name many times and at the times of Stalin it had the name Akmolinsk.
- Renammed Kuznetsk (550.000 inhabitants) to "Novokuznetsk" (Borger). But during the time of Stalin the city had the name Stalinsk (Borger).

3. Proposals for Modifications
- Add a city west of Novosibirsk, for supply between Novosibirsk & Omsk. Found no cities to add (Froonp). Wife born in Omsk, no city to add east of it (Borger).

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
3. Proposals for Modifications
- Add a city west of Novosibirsk, for supply between Novosibirsk & Omsk. Found no cities to add (Froonp). Wife born in Omsk, no city to add east of it (Borger).

Hi again Froonp. Now things start to look really nice. [:)] I'm studying a little bit
more about possible cities to add between Omsk and Novosibirsk. I found one
city called Kamen that is located on the west bank of Ob between Barnaul and
Novosibirsk. I think the city dot can be placed close to the Ob river in the river bend
where the text Ob is written. Maybe you can put it on the west side of the river and
place the city dot very close to Ob. Kamen has about 45.000 inhabitants.

Look here for more details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamen-na-Obi

It's also possible to think about including the city of Pavlodar.
See here for links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlodar

This city is in northeastern Kazachstan. It's alongside Irtysh south of Omsk.

This city is located 4 hexes south east of Omsk. It has about 300.000 inhabitants.
Can placement of Pavlodar help with the suply tracing situation in the region?

These are the only cities I can think of would help the supply situation in this region.
All other cities are much smaller and shouldn't be considered.

Keep up the good work.

[Neilster]

I vote for Stalinsk. It seems historically accurate and in addition it exudes the cold, tyrannical and ruthless atmosphere that existed in the wartime Soviet Union.

WiF players are going to have to get used to a lot of changes anyway and this one is very minor. Let's go for accuracy and cold-bloodedness. [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster

[Caranorn]

Just to remember, Stalinsk probably was not named after Stalin and rather after the steel industry. Afterall, Stalin means steel.

And yes, I also feel the WWII names are the only appropriate ones. Maybe add a list of tsarist-cadet-communist-stalinist-krutchev-modern name changes somewhere in the documentation. How one could go back to Tsarist place names is entirely beyond me. For me Leningrad is either Leningrad or Petrograd, never Saint Petersburg. Idem for Ekaterina or Sverdlovsk, never Ekaterinenburg... The tsarist names shoudl have been recognised as largely foreign and if the revolutionary names were not acceptable then the popular russian ones shoudl have been used.

But now I'm rambling politics...

[Froonp]

Maybe add a list of tsarist-cadet-communist-stalinist-krutchev-modern name changes somewhere in the documentation.

Maybe also add the list of Chinese cities names, showing the WWII names and the current names.

[trees trees]

don't forget you will need a definite boundary from the WiF East Europe map to this new map. regardless of how you feel about how the partisan and production rules work in WiF, and where "Siberia" actually starts, these parts of Russia are handled differently in the rules.

which reminds me...we'll probably need some way for the players to know how many rail moves are used up for a single unit/factory on these new scaled maps...unless this has already been covered earlier in this forum somewhere?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: trees trees

don't forget you will need a definite boundary from the WiF East Europe map to this new map. regardless of how you feel about how the partisan and production rules work in WiF, and where "Siberia" actually starts, these parts of Russia are handled differently in the rules.

This already is.
The Siberia boundary is where I drew the yellow line.

which reminds me...we'll probably need some way for the players to know how many rail moves are used up for a single unit/factory on these new scaled maps...unless this has already been covered earlier in this forum somewhere?

This already is too. One rail move is now a certain number of hexes, no more a number of maps. I seem to remember it was 40 hexes = 1 rail move, but I could be wrong.

[c92nichj]

We now have been having topics about
- China
- Caucasus
- Eastern russia

Could we also have a look at the scandinavian area? I know that it is being reworked.

Other areas of interest might be, Manchuria, East Africa, India, The islands in pacific ocean.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

We now have been having topics about
- China
- Caucasus
- Eastern russia

Could we also have a look at the scandinavian area? I know that it is being reworked.

If Steve authorizes me (I'm sure he will), I'll post a global shot of Scandinavia before & after the mods, and close up on the various sections.

Other areas of interest might be, Manchuria, East Africa, India, The islands in pacific ocean.

I intended to review those.
If you (and Steve) agree for me to do this, I'll post shots of how it is done now. If I find blattant errors, I'll signal them too.
I intended to review Easter Siberia & MAnchuria & Korea in the next pass, then East Africa or India, I had not decided. The Pacific Island could be too, but they are right from my first pass at them (and my first global games).
Steve told to me that he found that the Hawaiian Islands were "completely off", but I think I demonstrated to him the contrary. It is awkward to post shots from the game to the forums without first creating the coastlines, because if the coastlines aren't done, the picture of the map is difficult to read weather it is right or wrong. Just look at the northern part of the Philippines Islands that I posted in the China map thread both with & without the coastlines, and you'll see what I mean.

[Froonp]

I wanted to live up a little this thread, to help making the decisions.

In WiF FE, a unit with a 2 movement factor can walk from a home city to the next in clear weather, without loosing supply (so without having to disrupt and stop and becoming helpless), if the cities are 10 European hexes apart (5 Pacific hexes).

Distances between neighboring cities in the Penza - Krasnoyarsk area are as follow (See on the maps on posts #1, #22, #23, #24) :
A1. Penza - Kazan = 6 European hexes (WiF FE), 10 hexes (MWiF).
A2. Penza - Kuibyshev = 7 European hexes (WiF FE), 10 hexes (MWiF).
B1. Chelyabinsk - Omsk = 8 European hexes (WiF FE), 12 hexes (MWiF).
B2. Magnitogorsk - Karaganda = 10 European hexes (WiF FE), 18 hexes (MWiF).
C1. Omsk - Novosibirsk = 8 European hexes (WiF FE), 10 hexes (MWiF).
C2. Omsk - Semipalatinsk = 6 European hexes (WiF FE), 10 hexes (MWiF).
D. Novosibirsk - Krasnoyarsk = 8 European hexes (WiF FE), 11 hexes (MWiF).
E. Semipalatinsk - Alma Ata = 10 European hexes (WiF FE), 12 hexes (MWiF).
F. Krasnoyarsk - Irkursk = 12 European hexes (WiF FE), 15 hexes (MWiF).

Thus, in the advent of a German success pushing the Russians east of Penza in MWiF, the retreating Russian units (I consider they do not have an HQ in that case) can suffer from supply problems, be obliged to stop moving or disrupt to move while out of supply, and be dead meat for the Germans, things they do not have to face using the WiF FE maps.

Hence, my proposal is to add a couple of cities, about 1 in each dangerous interval.


Interval A :
Penza - Kazan & Penza - Kuibyshev. Larger in MWiF than in WiF, but not lethal (does not exceed 10 European hexes).

Primary Proposal (shown on post #22) :
- Add Ulyanovsk (between Kazan and Kuybyshev, hex 44,78, 620.000 inhabitants). Along the west bank of Volga halfway between Kazan and Kuybyshev. Ulyanovsk is the city Lenin was born in, and got the name from Simbirsk in 1924 (Borger).


Interval B :
Chelyabinsk - Omsk & Magnitogorsk - Karaganda. Far larger in MWiF than in WiF, and lethal (exceeds 10 European hexes).

Primary Proposal (shown on post #23) :
- Add Petropavlovsk (west of Omsk, hex 43,97, 200.000 inhabitants).
- Add Tyumen (west of Omsk, hex 38,94).
- Add Akmolinsk (Astana) (Rail intersection hex north of Karaganda, hex 50,99, 350.000 inhabitants). It's the capital of Kazakstan. This city has changed it's name many times and at the times of Stalin it had the name Akmolinsk.

Secondary Proposal :
- Add Kurgan (west of Petropavlovsk, 335.000 inhabitants) (Borger). I prefer Petropavlovsk, and I'm not sure we can add 2 new cities (Froonp).


Interval C :
Omsk - Novosibirsk & Omsk - Semipalatinsk. Large but not lethal.

Primary Proposal :
- Add no cities. It is a very sparsely inhabited area (Borger's wife), so adding no city is OK from my point of view. Moreover, the addition of Akmolinsk may help the travel from Omsk to Semipalatinsk.

Secondary Proposal :
- Add Pavlodar (Northeastern Kazakstan, alongside Irtysh south of Omsk, 4 hexes south east of Omsk, hex 47,103, 300.000 inhabitants) (Borger).


Interval D : Novosibirsk - Krasnoyarsk.
Far larger in MWiF than in WiF, and lethal (exceeds 10 European hexes). However, this is so far from the most eastwards German advance ever seen.

Primary Proposal (shown on post #24) :
- Add Tomsk (west of Krasnoyarsk, hex 37,114).
Secondary Proposal :
- None.


Interval E : Semipalatinsk - Alma Ata.
Large but not lethal.

Primary Proposal :
- Add no cities. It is desertic area, so adding no city is OK from my point of view.
Secondary Proposal :
- None.


Interval F : Krasnoyarsk - Irkursk.
Already lethal in WiF FE, larger in MWiF.

Primary Proposal :
- Add no cities. It is desertic area, so adding no city is OK from my point of view.

Secondary Proposal :
- None.


Opinions anyone ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I propse that we go with the following:

A - Ulyanovsk
B - Tyumen (though I would like to know exactly which hex it is in first) & Akmolinsk
C - No new cities
D - Tomsk (reluctantly)
E - No new cities
F - No new cities

My preference for minimal changes should be obvious here. I prefer Tyumen because it is 50% larger than Petropavlovsk. If I were playing the USSR I would want Petro., because of its better geography for the defense. But then I would not expect to ever be defending this deep in Siberia!

[c92nichj]

I agree with Steve here as few new cities as possible.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I propse that we go with the following:

A - Ulyanovsk
B - Tyumen (though I would like to know exactly which hex it is in first) & Akmolinsk
C - No new cities
D - Tomsk (reluctantly)
E - No new cities
F - No new cities
My preference for minimal changes should be obvious here. I prefer Tyumen because it is 50% larger than Petropavlovsk. If I were playing the USSR I would want Petro., because of its better geography for the defense. But then I would not expect to ever be defending this deep in Siberia!

Tyumen : hex 38,94, look at post #23, it is on the top left corner.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I propse that we go with the following:

A - Ulyanovsk
B - Tyumen (though I would like to know exactly which hex it is in first) & Akmolinsk
C - No new cities
D - Tomsk (reluctantly)
E - No new cities
F - No new cities

My preference for minimal changes should be obvious here. I prefer Tyumen because it is 50% larger than Petropavlovsk. If I were playing the USSR I would want Petro., because of its better geography for the defense. But then I would not expect to ever be defending this deep in Siberia!

Here is some info about Tyumen and Tomsk:

Tyumen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyumen

As you can see the city has today about 500.000 inhabitants so it's quite significant in the region.

Tomsk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomsk

Tomsk also has about 500.000 inhabitants today.

I propose the following new cities:

A - Ulyanovsk
B - Tyumen and Akmolinsk. Maybe also Kurgan (OR Petropavlovsk) (if necessary to travel from Chelyabinsk to
Omsk without losing supply). I prefer Kurgan to Petropavlovsk because it's bigger. But maybe Tyumen
takes care of the supply issues and then Kurgan or Petropavlovsk is not really needed?
C - Maybe add Pavlodar (if necessary to travel from Omsk to Semipalatinsk without losing supply)
D - Tomsk
E - No new cities
F - No new cities

[Froonp]

I propose the following new cities:
A - Ulyanovsk
B - Tyumen and Akmolinsk. Maybe also Kurgan (OR Petropavlovsk) (if necessary to travel from Chelyabinsk to
Omsk without losing supply). I prefer Kurgan to Petropavlovsk because it's bigger. But maybe Tyumen
takes care of the supply issues and then Kurgan or Petropavlovsk is not really needed?
C - Maybe add Pavlodar (if necessary to travel from Omsk to Semipalatinsk without losing supply)
D - Tomsk
E - No new cities
F - No new cities

For interval B, if Tyumen and Akmolinsk are added, Petropavlovsk or Kurgan are less usefull, and if we're going the minimalistic way (which I support fully), there is no need for them.

For Interval C, Pavlodar is not needed as there is 10 hexes between Omsk and Semipalatinsk, so a 2 moving unit can walk there.

I think we will go with the addition of Ulyanovsk, Tyumen, Akmolinsk and Tomsk.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
For interval B, if Tyumen and Akmolinsk are added, Petropavlovsk or Kurgan are less usefull, and if we're going the minimalistic way (which I support fully), there is no need for them.

For Interval C, Pavlodar is not needed as there is 10 hexes between Omsk and Semipalatinsk, so a 2 moving unit can walk there.

I think we will go with the addition of Ulyanovsk, Tyumen, Akmolinsk and Tomsk.

I noticed that the distance between Omsk and Semipalatinsk is only 10 hexes if you count directly and not
along the rail line. So Pavlodar is not needed.

I agree with only adding Ulyanovsk, Tyumen, Akmolinsk and Tomsk. These will serve the purpose of keeping
supply everywhere in Russia around the different rail lines. Remember the main purpose for looking at the map
inside Russia was to maintain supply similar to the WIFFE Asian scale map did in this region. The above
changes fulfill that purpose after changing to the WIFFE European scale. Mission accomplished. [;)]

[lomyrin]

Minimizing the number of new cities seems the right idea. The four or five cities mentioned in the preceeding posts ought to be quite enough.

As in CWiF any German advances in Siberia wil tend to be along the rail lines and suffer some from supply problems just as much has the retreating Russians. In my experience the Russians in this situation will have one or two HQ's helping their own supply paths.

Lars