How do you stop nightime bombing attacks

[niceguy2005]

Playing allies in June 42. The Japanese player is using nighttime bombing attacks to hit manpower and runways in China. Beyond the obvious of using Blen IFs to fly night patrol, what else can the allied player do to stop this?

[Feinder]

Night-bomb him back?
 
Sorry.  Seriously, I don't really know.  I thought they had toned this down considerably.  Neither me or my opponents really use it (just old school when it was -very- effective).
 
It's still a problem?  What sort of results are you seeing?
 
-F-

[niceguy2005]

I consider the attacks fairly succesfull. We are playing under the latest major version...can't recall the number.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wuchow , at 42,39

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 89
Ki-21 Sally x 80

No Japanese losses

Manpower hits 31

Aircraft Attacking:
22 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
17 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
15 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
----------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wuchow , at 42,39

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 43

No Japanese losses

Manpower hits 13

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
8 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
-----------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wuchow , at 42,39

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 85
Ki-21 Sally x 62

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 1 damaged

Manpower hits 13

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet

[RUPD3658]

Must be high skill levels. My opponant has tried using Blenheims for night attacks and has yet to score even a runway hit.

I guess you could set any fighter group with 70+ exp to night CAP.

[Feinder]

Ouch. Yeah, that would qualify.

First I'd "attept to open a dialog". It's the polite thing to do after all.

Next a warning shot. Maybe some of your own 2e bombers over his base at night, just for good measure.

If you voice still isn't heard, it's time to touch off every cannon on the gun-deck.

That being China, I'd turn off all replacements and stop all building projects in China. Move about 250 B-17s in Chungking (if you've got them), and blow the sh_t out of whatever airbase their coming from. If they're set to night attack, you -know- they'll be on the ground during the day. If you don't have B-17s, cramp every 2e bomber (Hudson, BlenIV, anything with range) you can scrounge. If he's flying Annes, he can't be coming from far away. 250 of your own 2e bomber clobbering him during the day will certainly "wake him up" (and 2e can't be considered gamey anyway).

Gamey begets gamey.
-F-

[alfrake]

ORIGINAL: Feinder
Sorry.  Seriously, I don't really know.  I thought they had toned this down considerably.

Gods, if its toned down now I'm glad I never saw it before. Last turn I lost 46 Zeroes to about 90 4Es night bombing Rangoon. No, it wasn't remotely overstacked - its a size 8 and I had maybe 150 planes total. It was a really bad turn, but I'm used to losing 15-20 planes a night when he gets that many to fly.

As far as I know, you don't stop night attacks. You counter bomb the airbases or sit and take it. As the Allies though, you should be crushing him with night attacks, not the other way around.

I'm pretty sure China has literally no use for Manpower anyway, at least not in stock 15. You don't have the supplies.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

Must be high skill levels. My opponant has tried using Blenheims for night attacks and has yet to score even a runway hit.

It ain't experience. I had Blenheims set to bomb the same airfield in Burma for a game year. Their experience reached the high eighties about half-way thru and they literally never scored even a single hit. It has to be the fact that the target is Manpower or that it is a City Attack.

[Gen.Hoepner]

As i see the old damn problem hasn't been solved yet. I hoped in these last 4 months where i've been away, with these new patches coming out, this great game-flaw was solved.
It's clear it was not.
The only way to get out of it is to decide with your opponents a fair limitation: no night bombings allowed directed to AFs and possibly not more than 1 4Es group or 2 2Es groups each time....
This can ruin a game if used quite often....so better to takl to your opponent

[AmiralLaurent]

[font="Verdana"]Hi Gen, glad to see you back on this forum.

Well, my impression was that the programers never reall ysaw a problem with airfield night bombings. After all, the fact that B-17 weren't used at nbight doesn't mean they can't be. And as we have no historical result, WITP results may be good...

Of course, what is wrong is the whole ability to have 100 B-17E bombing a Burmese airfield at night... In RL only some tens of Allied heavy bombers were able to fly each night over Burma, even in 1944. Night bombing is not in formation but a lonesome business and so few AC will attack to avoid collision and so on. Especially for attacking an airfield.

In fact, most aircraft not flying should be on satellite airfields or on dispersals and airfield bombing should be far less dangerous, at day or at night... Game will be far more realistic if all aircraft of stand down units, or flying in another phase than the current phase, will suffer far less losses than now... Some units get decimated on the ground, yes, but it was because they were ready to fly, or because they were in overcrowded airfields. WITP doesn't care...

As for the game is now, only home rule can limit night bombing. My own rule is that night bombing of everything except manpower is limited to a squadron (or a third of a group) from each starting base, and it keeps the result very historical. Manpower attacks (area bombings) are unlimited, so the example given above are OK according to this rule. On the other hand, I have never dealt damage to Allied industry or resource/oil centers with manpower attack, Japanese bombers had just not enough bombs to do enough damage. But with 31 manpower hits it is possible there is some real damage, but certainly far less than with a day bombing raid.

[ctangus]

I'm not seeing massive results at all. I've been doing small night bombing attacks against Mandalay for several weeks. Recon's reporting about 650-700 aircraft at a level 6 field, and I'm maybe averaging only 2 or 3 enemy planes destroyed per attack. From my last turn - this was by far my most successful attack:

Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,29

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 11

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 8
Wellington III x 23
Beaufort V-IX x 10
B-25C Mitchell x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 2 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
26 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 4
Runway hits 2

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

[font="Verdana"]Hi Gen, glad to see you back on this forum.

Well, my impression was that the programers never reall ysaw a problem with airfield night bombings. After all, the fact that B-17 weren't used at nbight doesn't mean they can't be. And as we have no historical result, WITP results may be good...

Of course, what is wrong is the whole ability to have 100 B-17E bombing a Burmese airfield at night... In RL only some tens of Allied heavy bombers were able to fly each night over Burma, even in 1944. Night bombing is not in formation but a lonesome business and so few AC will attack to avoid collision and so on. Especially for attacking an airfield.

In fact, most aircraft not flying should be on satellite airfields or on dispersals and airfield bombing should be far less dangerous, at day or at night... Game will be far more realistic if all aircraft of stand down units, or flying in another phase than the current phase, will suffer far less losses than now... Some units get decimated on the ground, yes, but it was because they were ready to fly, or because they were in overcrowded airfields. WITP doesn't care...

As for the game is now, only home rule can limit night bombing. My own rule is that night bombing of everything except manpower is limited to a squadron (or a third of a group) from each starting base, and it keeps the result very historical. Manpower attacks (area bombings) are unlimited, so the example given above are OK according to this rule. On the other hand, I have never dealt damage to Allied industry or resource/oil centers with manpower attack, Japanese bombers had just not enough bombs to do enough damage. But with 31 manpower hits it is possible there is some real damage, but certainly far less than with a day bombing raid.

Thanks Laurent. Really happy to be back[:)]

However,night bombing remains a thing that needs, really bad, to be house-ruled

[Nikademus]

Its the dive bombers.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Its the dive bombers.

I bet this does have something to do with it. Thanks everyone who has responded.

I'm slow to call my opponents tactics gamey as we didn't talk about any rules or restrictions around this area, therefore, its fair game in my mind. I was surprised as most night time attacks I have seen have not yielded good results. It must be a combination of dive bombers, well trained pilots and good die rolls.

My main question was do I use fighters set to night operation, which i figured would not get good results, or do I go on the offensive. It looks like the the consensus is attack his airfields.

In reality, his attacks aren't really causing me any problems right now. Since 1/3 of the chinese army surrendered at Sian I am overflowing with supplies. He could bomb day and night right now and barely put a dent in the supply levels. When I get all those new chinese units respawning it will be a different matter.

[Dino]

Detection level could be playing a roll, too. Japan has a lot of recons.

My experience with fighters on night CAP is that they may not hit anything, but they distract enemy bombers enough to make them less effective. I found Aircobras usefull for this mission since there are no escorts to deal with.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Dino

Detection level could be playing a roll, too. Japan has a lot of recons.

My experience with fighters on night CAP is that they may not hit anything, but they distract enemy bombers enough to make them less effective. I found Aircobras usefull for this mission since there are no escorts to deal with.

Maybe even a use for the chinese fighters

[Gen.Hoepner]

If you are the allies this won't really be a problem.
Try to walk in japanese shoes for a moment.
 
You sweat like a pig to keep your crack zero groups at best shape. You have 27 higly trained pilots in your best daitai. You defend a place like Rangoon. Early 42. No way the allies can face you during daylight.
Suddenly, from a pair of bases in India, during nightime, 80 4Es comes. You do not have any nightfighter at your disposal. Even if you did, they are pretty useless. Believe me. You have something like 150 planes at Rangoon. 10-15 of them get destroyed. 30 more damaged. 1 or 2 of your crack pilots are gone...
The following night the same disaster comes from India....
The night after....again
and again and again
In a pair of weeks your daitais are half of strenght. Many pilots dead in their barracks. Many points given to the allies, but above all nothing you can to to stop your enemy ( his AFs are too far away for your sallies). You have just one way to go: abbandon Rangoon AF and give in allies' hands the sky superiority.
 
This is a bad game-flaw.
Needs house rules to keep the gameplay fair and sound.

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

If you are the allies this won't really be a problem.
Try to walk in japanese shoes for a moment.

You sweat like a pig to keep your crack zero groups at best shape. You have 27 higly trained pilots in your best daitai. You defend a place like Rangoon. Early 42. No way the allies can face you during daylight.
Suddenly, from a pair of bases in India, during nightime, 80 4Es comes. You do not have any nightfighter at your disposal. Even if you did, they are pretty useless. Believe me. You have something like 150 planes at Rangoon. 10-15 of them get destroyed. 30 more damaged. 1 or 2 of your crack pilots are gone...
The following night the same disaster comes from India....
The night after....again
and again and again
In a pair of weeks your daitais are half of strenght. Many pilots dead in their barracks. Many points given to the allies, but above all nothing you can to to stop your enemy ( his AFs are too far away for your sallies). You have just one way to go: abbandon Rangoon AF and give in allies' hands the sky superiority.

This is a bad game-flaw.
Needs house rules to keep the gameplay fair and sound.

Hi General,

I agree that results like you mention are way too high. That's up to 10% of the planes at the base in one raid. However, I really think this is fixed with one of the recent patches.

I posted an example earlier - I just got the next turn in. Over 600 planes at the base. Size 6, so it's way overstacked (BTW I'm not complaining about my opponent's overstacking - I'd probably do the same in his shoes right now - I mention that for data, only.)

Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,29

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 19

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 4
Wellington III x 20
B-25C Mitchell x 9
B-17E Fortress x 9
B-24D Liberator x 19

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
Ki-49 Helen: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-61-Ib Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged

Runway hits 7

A total of 6 planes destroyed - less than 1% of what's there. It seems like a reasonable result to me.

I can't say I've tested it, however. I'd happily to agree to a house rule if an opponent wanted it (generally I don't do a lot of night bombing) but I frankly don't think a house rule is needed anymore.

[alfrake]

ORIGINAL: ctangus
I posted an example earlier - I just got the next turn in. Over 600 planes at the base. Size 6, so it's way overstacked

Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,29

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
Ki-49 Helen: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-61-Ib Tony: 1 destroyed

In my experience, the combat report of night bombing damage is seriously understated. I expect double the report (or more) destroyed plus some extra damaged.

[jolly_pillager]

From the Allied PoV there is little alternative to night bombing Rangoon (at least in my game v Alfrake.

The Zeros are consistantly getting 4-1 against my best fighters and much much more against my second rate ones.

I cannot maintain enough momentum against these losses to conduct normal attritional warfare, and therefore his air units are at a high strength level with expert pilots.

The result of this is that bombers alone CANNOT make a dent with daylight raids, and any planes with the legs to escort (P-40B's and E's) get flayed alive by the CAP (when they fly which is rarely to never) or get trashed on the ground at Mandalay / Akyab when the horde of Helens and Sallys come in under the cover of unkillable Zero squadrons.

So, to paraphrase someone's sig line, if you want historical play, make the units have historical capabilities. Zero's were not death machines that slaughtered everything that flew until the Corsair arrived. Night bombing raids often missed their targets...but occasionally hit with the same force as daylight raids. Airfields not on islands were difficult to knock completely out in a few days worth of bombing. The Akagi carried 36 torpedos for it's Kates and Betties / Nells certainly didn't obliterate every ship within 600 miles of their bases with massed torpedo attacks scoring hit rates in excess of 15%.

Everybody here knows what the flaws are...but "fixing" only one of them without addressing the rest will only make things MORE unbalanced. Either fix them all or fix none of them[:@]

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: ctangus

I'm not seeing massive results at all. I've been doing small night bombing attacks against Mandalay for several weeks. Recon's reporting about 650-700 aircraft at a level 6 field, and I'm maybe averaging only 2 or 3 enemy planes destroyed per attack. From my last turn - this was by far my most successful attack:

BTW: Chuck, Your reckon is wrong
I do not have over 600 planes in Mandalay like you suggested.
It's slightly over the normal rule of 50xAF size -- because
of reckons and mobile bunch of level bombers I have nothing to do
with....

really