The real possibilities for Sealion

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Lebatron
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RE: The real possibilities for Sealion

Post by Lebatron »

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

So -- any way to stop it? It would only require one extra unit in Scotland to make sealion impossible on turn 1, or to make that 2 move border as suggested to at least delay it until 1941, but I think as it stands if the axis player is allowed to repeat his first turn over again until sealion on turn 1 is successful, then the game is poked.

Del

In WAW A World Divided we in fact did fix this. If you havn't seen any screen shots of it yet, look for it under the forum section new games in developement. As I said above, one way to fix it would be to divide a sea zone to make Scotland range 3 and remove the auto militia. That is what we choose to use for the new game. I think you will like it. In addition, something else I always wanted to do for Franco's Alliance was redesign the Pacific so that the Bonin Islands were in the correct position and shift some sea zones to create more direct adjacencies. I believe many will like what I did to the new map.
Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided
mikwarleo
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RE: The real possibilities for Sealion

Post by mikwarleo »

mcaryf and others I agree with Heinz Guderian,

Clearly the main point here is that some people think it is too easy for Germany to invade England (Scotland or whatever). In the overall outlook of the game Germany is up against it right from the start. Everything needs to go perfectly and keep going that way, on time and with minimal losses or they're sunk. Why make it harder?

If you're going to look into issues like those raised in this thread I think there needs to be more consideration of the effects on game balance rather than on (what I find to be well misguided) appeals to reality. Either way, realistically or in game terms, I think previous posters are being somewhat one-eyed.

For example, apparently contrary to popular opinion in this thread, as WA player I find it easy (perhaps too easy) to defend England and/or Scotland from invasion. Simply station a few extra units there and walla. For those calling out "ahistorical" and pointing their finger at Scotland, well, why not consider how easy it is for the WA player to make any invasion of England/Scotland virtually impossible? It seems to be put forward here that Sealion was not a very real possibility and that is nonsense imho. "The Americans contacted Churchill and asked if the Royal Navy would be sent to Canada when — not if — England fell. 'We will survive, not surrender!' growled Churchill." [http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/britain_40.htm]

Heck, you 'historians' out there, why not consider the fact that German fighters cannot even reach England in this game until 1941 and then only if valuable resources are spent on research?! Or the horrible ineffectiveness of AIR against combat fleets? Ahistorical anyone? Germany is left to fight WA fighters with bombers and the Royal NAV (if deployed in groups) is almost immune to German AIR power. My point is the important thing is 'balance' not reality. This is a game and concessions have to be made. Our role in WaW, like our role in a game of chess, is to understand the rules, play the game, out manoeuvre and out smart our opponent and win. It is 'based' on WW2, it isn't WW2 and while it's a great technical game in some ways, it is a relatively simple game nonetheless and that's the beauty of it. An arcade-strategy game if you will.

Following the road of the 'keep-it-real' camp a little further leads to two things: 1. a history book not a game (as Heinz rightly pointed out) and 2. a more complex game like HOI or War in the Pacific.

I mean really, in WaW WA's only job is to hold out and/or delay/harass Germany's attack on Russia until the USA appears on the scene at which time you can annihilate the Axis. I play both sides in roughly equal numbers and I think the odds are already stacked high enough against Germany. Is there anyone out there who doesn't feel like the underdog playing Axis? Isn't that why we like it? Again, why upset the balance?

Finally, even if you lose England it's not the End. In a PBEM game I'm playing with an experienced player I lost Scotland after a massive air assault. London followed but I made Germany pay for the whole exercise it as any decent player will. This held off Barbarossa till 1942 and the Red Bear was a monster by then with iirc 15-20 tanks, 40-45 infantry, 20 ARTY and 15 AA and everything with decent levels of research (AA was air attack 8!). Russia was completely isolated well before 42 and still Germany barely stepped foot on Russian soil before they were being pushed back. Meanwhile I forgot to supply Pearl Harbour and lost almost everything stationed there (yes sunk not just damaged). Nevertheless the USA has smacked Japan all over the Pacific by redeploying the majority of the Allied navy and land based AIR to the region. Even with England lost victory seems impossible for the Axis unless I mess up somewhere and total victory for the allies is looking like a very real possibility already and it's only late 43. With Japan soon to be under wraps the transport train to Germany is already in place and waiting for troops.

In short, again, why make it any harder for Germany. Losing England sux but it's far from the end for the allies. Leaving England in place is almost certainly a death penalty for Germany much like it was in Reality.

If you want to appeal to reality then you have a seemingly unlimited number of things to look at in WaW. German fighter range and the effectiveness of air power against fleets are just two obvious likely complex examples that to my mind stand in contrast to the Scotland example. My point is these appeals to reality are the wrong way to go, they quickly become a slippery slope where WaW won’t look like WaW much before too long. So, not to say I don’t feel there are improvements that can be made (I’ve made some extensive posts on targeting for example) but here I disagree with any of the suggested changes especially reducing the transport capacity of German transports

... lol listen to all us wanna-be game designers. Happy gaming.

[;)]

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Lebatron
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RE: The real possibilities for Sealion

Post by Lebatron »

ORIGINAL: Lebatron

Don't get these guys wrong. They don't want Sealion to be made impossible. Just a little harder. The sweet spot would be a balance that allows Germany to succeed with Sealion if he builds and plays well. That is kind of the case now but the victory in England is perhaps coming to soon. A good balance to strike would be a delay of a turn or two of Englands conquest. In this way the rest of the Allies can have a chance in 1943 to push the Axis under 70PP before its to late. As the game plays now its very possible for the Germans to get a quick victory in England and then have the time to neutral land grab a little to get very close to AV. Then during Barbarossa quickly grab the few needed to go over the top. Russia during its first turn of war is usually not in a good position to retake much. I recently had this very same thing happen to me while I played Russia in a PBEM game. I got attacked and could do nothing on my first turn to knock the Axis down enough to prevent the AV.

So the flaw as most probably see it, is not whether Sealion is possible, but the time frame required to pull it off. Anything that can delay Sealion a turn or two would be seen by most as a plus. Perhaps making Scotland rough terrain can do just that. We'll have to see if thats the case.

Rather than explain it all again I will just point out what I said before.

I agree with you on almost every point. However it was a bit to easy to win via Sealion then follow up with a neutral land grab to hit AV whether your game experience agrees with that or not. A patch made Scotland rough and that seemed to help. Its about game balance just as you pointed out.
Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
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mikwarleo
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RE: The real possibilities for Sealion

Post by mikwarleo »

Ah [:)] and I agree with you, I did read your post. Probably should have been clearer about my agreement as I was talking in regard to the v1.202 patch (i.e. rough Scotland).

Mainly I felt the idea of lowering the GER Transport Value was a very bad proposition.

BTW I don't much like the 70pp = game over situation just in terms of playability, I think it takes away from the fun. Though it does seem necessary for game balance esp in ladder games. I wonder what can be done in this regard? Does World Divided address this at all?
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RE: The real possibilities for Sealion

Post by delatbabel »

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen

Ahh, I see. I remember the thread - though I dont recall if I was the one claiming the 3% or not.

Yes, its possible to take Scotland by cheating. With enough patience you can also have the Italian Fleet kill off the E. Med Uk Fleet without taking any loses (the odds are very low so be prepared to use alot of time on that). I suggest using a house rule not to allow such sillyness.

In A World Divided Scotland has indeed become tougher to invade and absolutely cannot be invaded on the first turn.

A house rule seems to be the only answer, however two of the gamers I'm playing with (locals, not in the ladder) don't appear to think that reloading the first turn repeatedly until Scotland falls is cheating.

I'd prefer the game made it impossible. I'm not sure that making Scotland rough achieves that, as you can still ampibiously invade a rough area.

--
Del
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RE: The real possibilities for Sealion

Post by delatbabel »

ORIGINAL: Lebatron

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

So -- any way to stop it? It would only require one extra unit in Scotland to make sealion impossible on turn 1, or to make that 2 move border as suggested to at least delay it until 1941, but I think as it stands if the axis player is allowed to repeat his first turn over again until sealion on turn 1 is successful, then the game is poked.

Del

In WAW A World Divided we in fact did fix this. If you havn't seen any screen shots of it yet, look for it under the forum section new games in developement. As I said above, one way to fix it would be to divide a sea zone to make Scotland range 3 and remove the auto militia. That is what we choose to use for the new game. I think you will like it. In addition, something else I always wanted to do for Franco's Alliance was redesign the Pacific so that the Bonin Islands were in the correct position and shift some sea zones to create more direct adjacencies. I believe many will like what I did to the new map.

I have to say that I'm not entirely happy I have to spend more money on a different game to get the problem fixed in this one.

I did have a look at the World Divided forum and see some of the screen shots. Apart from some things (1939 start), I'm not overly enamoured -- too much politics and manouvering detracts from the combat. :)
--
Del
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RE: The real possibilities for Sealion

Post by JanSorensen »

Nothing prevents you from either making a house rule not to attack Scotland in the first turn or a tiny mod adding 1 MIL to Scotland. The former being the easier approach. Simply tell any potential opponents that you wish to use that particular houserule. Honest opponents would not mind so no loss if someone declines playing you on account of this.

So, you can fix the problem very easily yourself in WaW without spending any money.
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