Thoughts on the (un)success of CotA (long)

[El Savior]

I don't care about graphics, but I know most of the (casual) gamers think it's one of the most important issue when choosing what game to buy. Actually I like COTA's graphics. Its crisp, informative and clean, just what is needed. But of course it could be better, no doubt about it. Sounds are not that good, sometimes they are a bit annoying when fighting hard battles. My girlfriend hates the sounds of this game, but likes Oblivion music and sfxs example. [&:] But nice thing is that you dont really need sounds, so I often play without sounds or I'm playing own music in the background. I think COTA is near perfect game and only minor things that could be improved. But there is one major thing that I would like to change...

ESTABS. If I only could get ESTAB editor... That would make the game more moddable and give us scenario makers free hands to create almost ANY scenario. I could make Finnish-Russian Winter and continuous war scenarious, new Bastogne scenarios with better US ESTABs, add new units for Holland 1940, etc. You got the point. Now we are pretty much bound to create scenarios for certain theatre and certain time and certain nations/units. Even possibility to create new companies, batallions with the arms already included in ESTABS would help a lot.

BTW, quick battle editor would be a great idea!

[sapper_astro]

This game entered my radar when I heard it was about Greece/Crete. I didn't bother with the last two because they were of battles that were done to death.
 
Now that I know what the mechanics are about, I will be buying Panther games regardless of the campaign its around, as long as the same quality is forthcoming in the future.
 
I would like those campaigns though....They are the only thing missing for me at the moment, besides more estabs. My Greek Fantasy scenarios are starting to edge out of the estab timeline here.....And both my brother and I are wanting more. Deal with the problem Dave.[;)]

[Llyranor]

ORIGINAL: TheJoat

Well, from my point of view, the only thing missing right now is cooperative play against the AI.

I'm going to have to agree with this. The next AA games would definitely be must-buys for my friend if they included coop (I wouldn't be giving him a choice if coop was added [8D] ). As nice as multiplayer is, I'm not really into PvP. I love coop.

But then again, I'm already completely sold on every game you guys are releasing from now on.

[karto]

For me, the one and only factor holding back my purchase was the price.
It is also the single factor that pretty much guarantees that none of my friends will buy COTA. With a lower price, there would be anywhere from 3-7 purchases among them.

I really, really think you should reconsider the pricing. At the moment it is an exclusive piece of enthusiast software, instead of the cheap cool game everyone and their mother gets when they want to try a modern wargame.

[Uedel]

well for my self i own RDOA, Highway to Hell and COTA, and i love the game as it is, but a ESTAB Editor and a little more Easy (Drag&Drop) Scenario Editor would be realy fine.

I dont need all Units from all Nations from 1939 to 1945 but a little more flexibility in the Estab system would brin a BIG BIG Bonus to this Game.
Look at it a little like on CMBB CMBO or CMAK u only have the Units of the Timescale and Region of this Game, but u can virtually make ANY Battle you like to. And that is in my eyes one of the thinks that made the CM series such a long Burner. It didnt hurt Battlefront instead it made them get much more sales, because it was one of the first Wargames with such an easy to use and understand Scenario Editor.
I think PG as much as i love them should think again about their Politics about the Flexibility and Easy to Use of the Scenario Maker, spend a little more time for it in the next Title. It is important for long Time motivation of this Game. For my self after playing 50 Times first clash at Verve from either side, the Game fades a lttle to grey, because long Order Delays and Extra Hard AI doesnt do it for me all the Time, i liketo make new Scenarios my self even if restrictet to the Geographical and Timeline limits of the Forces presentet in the Game.

just my 0.02 € wich are more valueable then your 0.02 US$ [:D]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Lollipop


- the alpha grog. You'll recognize him when you'll meet him. Spends 10% of his/her money on hamburgers, 20% on wargames & the rest on military books. Loves historical scenarios to complain about faulty penetration tables & unaccurate OOB's. FWITW I'm married with one.

Pia Kraft

<looks down and takes note of the huge target painted on his chest>

Oh, where to begin.......

As a seriuos grog with 30+ years of wargaming under my belt I have seen many, many game publishers come and go. Not only the cottage industry publishers, but the industry giants like Avalon Hill, Simulations Publications Inc., have always found it hard to create a viable enough market to survive.

I have to agree with those who point out that the masses are wooed by sexy 3D graphics and simulations that require more acting than thinking. It is an unfortunate truth that strategy games that require serious thought appeal to a rather finite market.

The real critical factors seem to be these:

1. Are the publishers satisfied with a limited niche market?

2. Can said limited niche market keep the publisher solvent enough to survive?

It's always good to strive to expand the market, but sometimes the overreach is what sounds the death knell.
[:(]

[MarkShot]

I was trying to explain this thread to my wife the other day and she asked "So, why doesn't Dave just make the game 3D and make some money"? My wife is very practical and has a keen sense of "go where the money is". (Thus, she has always told me that my analysis of game engines, ground, air combat is wasted. I should be analyzing stocks and picking companies and not flying or commanding.)

Well, I tried to explain it to her like this. "Suppose your dream was to produce the World's best baseball sim. However, research shows that first person shooters sell much better than baseball sims. What do you do? Stay true to your principles or include rifles instead of just bats and add a feature where from the dugout you can snipe and take out the other teams players on the field." I am not sure she fully grasped my analogy, but I fear if she understood it better, she would be advocating the introduction of HMGs to the dugouts for each team.

All I can say is thank you to all the Dave O'Connors and other small time developers who have a vision that is more dear to them than HMGs in the dugout. If not for such individuals, I don't think my PC would be of much value to me other than for work.

Thank you, dreamers, one and all.

[TheHellPatrol]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

All I can say is thank you to all the Dave O'Connors and other small time developers who have a vision that is more dear to them than HMGs in the dugout. If not for such individuals, I don't think my PC would be of much value to me other than for work.

Thank you, dreamers, one and all.

[&o]Yes, thank you from the bottom of my heart. Without such developers i would be forced to a life a frustration, phooey on "3-D", hitting a little white ball...then walking after it only to hit it again: repeat etc. Finally i would end up getting that little white ball in a hole only to have to bend over, pick it up, and start the process all over again[8|].

[piotre]

I couldn't have put it better Mark.

Pietro.

[Arjuna]

Ah fooee. Real men don't dream. They have visions and implement them. [:)]
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[goodwoodrw]

Hey Dave, I thought it was quiche not dreams, [:D] however I agree with you, visions and implement them is what its all about. In my case, I decided to build a house with no experience at all, my mates said I crazy, well fingers to them 2 and bit years on I am now starting decorate. So far I have saved a packet. I guess the moral of the story is, no matter what your visions, dreams, etc are, don't keep thinking about them. Just do it (sorry Nike)

[Arjuna]

BASB,
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Yes&nbsp; but I have to agree with your mates. I have seen too many couples ending up divorced after trying to build their own home. My younger brother did it and their marriage survived but 20 years on and he's going to build again but this time he said he's hiring a builder. [:)]

[goodwoodrw]

Naw I would encourage anyone to do what we have done, probably a smaller project though, at the start the money saved was the primary objective, but now, I think the sense of achievement is the greatest reward. I saved a few quid, but the real reward is to be to sit back and say I did that! I'm sure with the skills you have , u could have found a far greater financial rewading career, however u choose to do what your doing, it must be a good feeling when people heap high praise on your games, i know I get a fat head when people come to look at my house and say how well I done.[:D][:D]

sorry everyone for hijacking this thread. no more chest beating [:D]

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Ah fooee. Real men don't dream. They have visions and implement them. [:)]

Just keep on implementing. 3D or not, this series of games has a bright future. The new titles will surely bring in even more new customers; this after the engine is perfected-perhaps this was the plan all along-nothing wrong with that.
While it is apparently true that this type of game will never sell by the millions, a hundred thousand seems reasonable. The big problem is how to get the exposure/advertising for free. Word of mouth is the best in some ways, but it can take a wee bit longer-sort of like an indirect approach-very indirect.

The downloadable movie is a great idea. It should show as many units as possible performing some easily discernable maneuvers which a novice could recognize. To squeeze the right action into 5 minutes will be tough, but there are some around here that can do it.

At any rate, I hope that when you do decide to veer off from this particular series, it will be to modify this engine for much larger campaigns-like the whole eastern front.[;)]
3D is great for a company commander or a platoon leader, but when you get to Bn staff/command or higher, paper rules (paper with grids and terrain features, that is).

[Lollipop]

RL has hit me hard so I couldn't follow the discussion.

Some random thoughts:

AA is a niche product by definition. My intention wasn't to present a cunning plan to make CotA a serious competitor for 'the sims', but start a discussion why the AA series is a niche in a niche product.

I still think my equation 'narrow scope = small nr. of scenarios = small customer base = small nr. of scenarios' holds true. How many scenarios have been released for CotA?. And with the bulge thingie on the horizon, everybody will jump on that wagon.

IMO the best thing, PG could do, would be the release of an estab editor. From reading the forums I got the impression that quite some people are willing to work on estabs. Bluntly I don't buy Arunjas reasoning that the estab editor is an inhouse app & would need alot of polishing. Civ4 SDK comes to mind, with zero warranty, zero support & exactly zero lines of documentation. Same with TES (elder scrolls) construction kit. I suspect commercial reasons. Or commercial enforcements. And while I understand that holding on the estab monopoly might be beneficial in the short run, I'm convinced that it hurts AA success in the long run. Of course the moment a AA title comes up with a reasonable scope that point is moot.

And JeF, 'Lollipop' is a 1958 Chordettes song which I was crazy about as a kid (yes, I'm that old).

Pia

[Arjuna]

Pia,
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You may be right about the narrow scope but I doubt it. There are many other traditional turn based wargames out there with even less scenarios and less scenario generation capability and yet are popular - take SSG's games for example. I also don't believe that it's because we lack this or that feature. Our product has infinitely more features than most other commercial wargames and has innovation in abundance.
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It's only natural for enthusiasts of our games to look at extra features or extra scope as a possible solution, after all they already love and most importantly understand the system. So for them understanding the system is not an issue but as some of the new converts from traditional turn based wargaming have stated here this was an issue for them and this I believe is the issue we should address as a priority.
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In fact tomorrow Eddy will be devoting his wonderful talent and enthusiasm to produce a more polished and focused 5 Minute Guide. If progress is good he may even finish a "Full Throttle" guide as well. We'll make these easily accessible here and see if we can get some feedback from people who view them and of course see if there is a noticeable increase in sales. Now if there isn't a noticeable increase in sales then obviously I'm wrong, but at least we will have tested one option and then we can review others.
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So once more into the breach my friends...

[Joel]

If I may bring some feedback from someone who was interested in COTA but didn't purchase it.
Two main reasons influenced my decision.

1/ no playable demo
I bought Airborne Assault some years ago (the first in the series, published by Battlefront) and for some reason never quite got into it. I tried it again some weeks ago to give myself a chance to buy CotA, since I like the idea of getting rid of hexes for an operational game. The AI and the UI quickly got the game back into its box. I've read that both these areas have been enhanced, but how can I check that? So if you really believe the engine has been enhanced, be proud of it and show it to your potential customers. The refusal to put a new demo out can be seen as a lack of confidence in your product (I guess it is not, but rather a lack of confidence in your potential customers' ability to grasp the system, which is never a good thing to state publicly) [;)]

2/ no pbem
Like many people, gaming is not my main occupation. I have a job, a family, some remains of a social life, etc. So I like to play when I want/can and pbem is perfect for that: I can return the files whenever I have some free time, late at night, early in the morning or at midday, whereas TCP/IP is sometimes difficult to organise and needs me to focus only on the game and forget everything around me for a while.
Thus I feel that having a choice only between TCP/IP and solo (the AI may be good but it will never be as interesting to play as a human opponent) is actually a step back compared to games offering pbem.
I understand it may not be easy to add a wego/pbem feature (it may even be downright impossible given the base code, or opposed to what you want the game to be), but for me no pbem is a killer. [:-]

Well in short that's what made me reluctant to purchase CotA, even if I was interested in it (which is why I still lurk this forum from time to time). [:)]


PS : no 3D, narrow scope and the choice of the campaign had nothing to do with my decision to skip this purchase. Actually I find the Crete and Greece campaigns more appealing than one more game about the usual ones.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Joel

2/ no pbem
Like many people, gaming is not my main occupation. I have a job, a family, some remains of a social life, etc. So I like to play when I want/can and pbem is perfect for that: I can return the files whenever I have some free time, late at night, early in the morning or at midday, whereas TCP/IP is sometimes difficult to organise and needs me to focus only on the game and forget everything around me for a while.
Thus I feel that having a choice only between TCP/IP and solo (the AI may be good but it will never be as interesting to play as a human opponent) is actually a step back compared to games offering pbem.
I understand it may not be easy to add a wego/pbem feature (it may even be downright impossible given the base code, or opposed to what you want the game to be), but for me no pbem is a killer. [:-]

While not an 'RTS' game in the traditional sense, CotA is a (pausible) continuous time game, and not turn-based. You simply can't implement PBEM in that sort of game, any more than you could in Close Combat (or Age of Empires, come to that).

[JeF]

ORIGINAL: Lollipop
And JeF, 'Lollipop' is a 1958 Chordettes song which I was crazy about as a kid (yes, I'm that old).

If I'm not mistaken, that song was the main theme of the TV show I loved as a kid. I didn't know where it comes from. Thanks for that.

Sorry for the small hijack guys, but this was important. [:)]

JeF.

[RayWolfe]

Good feedback Joel

ORIGINAL: Joel
and the UI quickly got the game back into its box

Can you say what you thought was wrong with the UI? I ask because I have not heard much crtisism of this aspect of the gamer.

ORIGINAL: Joel
2/ no pbem

Yes this is quoted by many people as a problem. Do you do much PBEM? What proportion of your gaming is PBEM? What are you currently doing via PBEM?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm realy interested in peoples feelings about this engine.
Cheers
Ray