Reinforcing Finnish StuGs with logs.

Musti · Post by **Musti** » Wed Jul 26, 2000 4:11 pm

It would be a nice feature to include finnish StuG's during Continuation War(1941-44)with log reinforced crew compartments. It was quite common and gave the StuG a little bit more protection.

[This message has been edited by Musti (edited July 26, 2000).]

Schrubbery · Post by **Schrubbery** » Wed Jul 26, 2000 4:48 pm

This was also done by other troops as well. There are reports of Soviets adding logs to their T-34's. Also the standard procedure of Japanese arms industry was to build tanks of bamboo to save materiel, but that's irrelevant...

Still, I wonder how useful those logs were. The extra weight slowed the vehicle down, and a mortar barrage might cripple the logs. As the game is concerned, it models skirts so I suppose it could do the logs as well.

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Wed Jul 26, 2000 5:05 pm

Musti, in the forthcoming new Finnish OOB those logs have been taken into account by giving the tank a slightly thicker side hull armour. Also the front turret is thicker due to the concrete reinforcement.

I don't think we should use skirts to simulate those logs as the effect of skirts is much more drastic, especially against shaped charges.

As for extra weight, I doubt that couple hundred extra kilos on a 24-ton vehicle are very noticeable.

Voriax

Musti · Post by **Musti** » Wed Jul 26, 2000 5:29 pm

This is my first day using this forum(I'm a true greenie)and already I am surprised to see how eager people are to answer comments/answers made by an "outsider". I want to thank you for that. And then another issue: According to my sources and knowledge finnish troops didn't have the Lahti ATR during Winter War. Lahti ATR was taken into service in 1940, after the Winter War, which ended in March, 1940...So could you please make it a little bit more challenging to fight those russian tanks during 1939?
Thank you.

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Wed Jul 26, 2000 5:54 pm

Originally posted by Musti:
This is my first day using this forum(I'm a true greenie)and already I am surprised to see how eager people are to answer comments/answers made by an "outsider". I want to thank you for that. And then another issue: According to my sources and knowledge finnish troops didn't have the Lahti ATR during Winter War. Lahti ATR was taken into service in 1940, after the Winter War, which ended in March, 1940...So could you please make it a little bit more challenging to fight those russian tanks during 1939?
Thank you.

We are usually kinda nice.... (evil

)

Well, the new entry date for Lahti ATR will be April 1940. But on the other hand couple new AT-guns will appear during the Winter War timescale (25mm French gun, 20mm 'generic' gun to cover at least 3 different variants)

Also the rifle squads will have molotovs and satchel charges so I guess it's up to you and your troop selection if you want to make it really challenging. Or fiddle with the preferences.

Voriax

ps. You will be surprised with the new Finnish OOB. Lots of interesting units. Actually so many interesting units that the OOB has very few free slots left!

Musti · Post by **Musti** » Wed Jul 26, 2000 5:58 pm

Well, the new entry date for Lahti ATR will be April 1940. But on the other hand couple new AT-guns will appear during the Winter War timescale (25mm French gun, 20mm 'generic' gun to cover at least 3 different variants)

You guys have really done your homework.

Also the rifle squads will have molotovs and satchel charges so I guess it's up to you and your troop selection if you want to make it really challenging. Or fiddle with the preferences.

Voriax

ps. You will be surprised with the new Finnish OOB. Lots of interesting units. Actually so many interesting units that the OOB has very few free slots left!

Thank you for showing an honouring interest in the tiny plot of land called Finland!

[This message has been edited by Musti (edited July 26, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Musti (edited July 26, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Musti (edited July 26, 2000).]

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Wed Jul 26, 2000 6:24 pm

Musti, on top of this frame/post you can see a small white box with a 'who?' text next to it.

Click it

Voriax

Mac_MatrixForum · Post by **Mac_MatrixForum** » Wed Jul 26, 2000 7:27 pm

Originally posted by Voriax:
Musti, on top of this frame/post you can see a small white box with a 'who?' text next to it.

Click it

Yeah

Thanks in advance to the people who have been working on the Finnish OOB.

------------------
Markku "Mac" Rontu

"Understanding is a three-edged sword,
your side, their side and the truth."
- Sheridan in B5

Schrubbery · Post by **Schrubbery** » Thu Jul 27, 2000 12:59 am

Originally posted by Voriax:
Well, the new entry date for Lahti ATR will be April 1940.

Great, I was going to ask about these, as well as the 25 mm's, but looks like I forgot... Well, I'll rant about something else, then.

How about 14 mm Boys AT rifle (14,0 pst.kiv/37)? Some 100 were received from UK in January 1940 and taken immediately to front line. Another 100 were received after war was over, and in December Germany (it's amazing what all those Brits left behind in Dunkerque) sold 200 more of these weapons.

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Thu Jul 27, 2000 1:11 am

Schrubbery, you are in luck

The OOB has both Finnish and Swedish inf.AT teams equipped with Boys AT-rifle (We added some basic Swedish infantry units to describe the volunteer troops during Winter War)

Seriously the OOB has only about two dozen slots left out of 249!

Guerillas, Jaegers, Ski troops, Coastal Arty, Panssarilaiva (Armoured coastal defence ship), so many variants of infantry units you'll be confused.

Starting to drool already?

Voriax

ps. Also a warning to scenario makers. The OOB file was so cluttered we rearranged it, thus in scenarios made with current official OOB you'll end up having very strange units.

Drake666 · Post by **Drake666** » Thu Jul 27, 2000 2:04 am

If you do this with the finnish you would have to do it with the other countries to. The US and brits often added spear tracks and sandbags to their tanks for extra armour. A lot better then trees. The Germans would often use their spear tracks for this to.

One of the main reaosn this was done was to protect the tank from shaped charges.

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Thu Jul 27, 2000 2:52 am

Drake, that is up to the people who do the other OOB's. In Finnish OOB this is sort of 'easy' modification as there was only 59 of those Sturms in use and not all of them participated in battles because they arrived so late...I think most, if not all combat-ready vehicles were equipped with logs & concrete after initial fights in summer 1944.

Also I believe one important use for those logs was to use them under tracks if tank gets stuck.

I've seen many pics of those spare tracks, usually at the front hull. As for how much they add for the armour is another thing. Hmm..there was a pic somewhere where an add-on armour slab had actually turned an AP round inwards knocking out the tank.
I guess the difference is that this concrete was an 'official' modification while track pieces etc are added by the crew and not all of them...

Voriax

albert · Post by **albert** » Thu Jul 27, 2000 6:02 am

there were lots of different improvised types of armor. I believe skirts originally were an improv that german workshops created in reply to the bazooka. Also I believe I've seen photos of Finnish troops with some type of atr (Solothurns or Pzb39) in the winter war. it may be whatever the Swedes were using inlate 39.

Schrubbery · Post by **Schrubbery** » Thu Jul 27, 2000 10:36 am

Wonderful, Voriax! I'm already thinking of naming my firstling as SPWAW v3.0 (if it is a boy).

Originally posted by albert:
Also I believe I've seen photos of Finnish troops with some type of atr (Solothurns or Pzb39) in the winter war. it may be whatever the Swedes were using inlate 39.

The only ATR in Winter War was the mentioned 14mm Boys, so it must be those. And they didn't arrive during the first month of war.

It must be a curse or something, how Finland always gets AT weaponry after the Soviet attack has started: in 1944 Panzerfausts and 'Schrecks were ordered after Soviets had begun their large-scale offensive. Actually, now that Finnish Defence Forces have ordered Israeli-German Spike ATGM's, there's again the possibility that Russia attacks a month before they arrive.

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Thu Jul 27, 2000 5:58 pm

Originally posted by Voriax:
Panssarilaiva (Armoured coastal defence ship), B]

The Vainamoinen? Pinch me, I must be dreaming!

P.S. You should put your little cannon in

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Fri Jul 28, 2000 12:26 am

Originally posted by Seth:
The Vainamoinen? Pinch me, I must be dreaming!

P.S. You should put your little cannon in

We are having problems with the Vainamoinen/Ilmarinen. In the weaponry department...how to accurate depict the arsenal of 4x10" guns, 8x105mm DPguns and 4x40mm and 8x20mm AA guns

One each is the current solution.

Such firepower would be murderous in the SPWAW scale...

I think I'll leave that cannon to the makers of the SP:Medieval

Voriax

asaura · Post by **asaura** » Sun Jul 30, 2000 4:45 pm

Originally posted by Schrubbery:
It must be a curse or something, how Finland always gets AT weaponry after the Soviet attack has started: in 1944 Panzerfausts and 'Schrecks were ordered after Soviets had begun their large-scale offensive.

Some 1700 'fausts and 300 'schrecks were received in spring '44, well before the attack. By March it was pretty obvious that a large attack was in the works, especially after the Soviets threw back the German siege of Leningrad.

After the "4th Strategic Strike" of the Red Army began in East Karelia on June 10, Finland asked Germany for aid. On June 12, Hitler decided to help. On the same day, 110 'schrecks came in by plane and boats carrying 'fausts soon followed. By September, some 24 000 'fausts and 1550 'schrecks were delivered, mainly in the first two weeks of this final phase of the war.

I believe the major problem with these weapons was not their availability, but the lack of training. Organized training in the Aunus secondary front did not start until July, well after most of the Karelian Isthmus and Viipuri were lost. Does anyone know how the available portable AT weapons were used in June '44, in East Karelia? I am aware of 'fausts in the battle of Ihantala in the last days of June, but how were they deployed?

Schrubbery · Post by **Schrubbery** » Sun Jul 30, 2000 6:56 pm

Originally posted by asaura:
Some 1700 'fausts and 300 'schrecks were received in spring '44, well before the attack.

Yes. Nobody just could imagine the scale of Soviet offensive, so that amount was way too small. The whole amount after April would have been sufficient for one German division only. In the Isthmus there was 700 Fausts and 150 Schrecks, with 10 88mm rockets each. ("Marskin Panssarintuhoojat")

Does anyone know how the available portable AT weapons were used in June '44, in East Karelia?

I think they were shot from the shoulder... äh, I don't know for sure what you mean.

asaura · Post by **asaura** » Mon Jul 31, 2000 6:55 pm

Originally posted by Schrubbery:
I think they were shot from the shoulder... äh, I don't know for sure what you mean.

I can imagine they were

I meant their use as in organization. As the weapons were few, one would think that they were used in a special manner, since there weren't enough to just distribute them to the troops. "Marskin panssarintuhoojat" seems to refer to a special unit, is this so?

Schrubbery · Post by **Schrubbery** » Tue Aug 01, 2000 12:47 am

Originally posted by asaura:
I meant their use as in organization. As the weapons were few, one would think that they were used in a special manner, since there weren't enough to just distribute them to the troops.

Let's see... "Panzerschreck detachment was created in the ATG company of every Infantry Regiment and Brigade. Panzerschreck detachments were still limited, and they didn't have enough weapons either."

It doesn't say it straight here, but I think this 'detachment' means one platoon (close defence, lähitorjunta). And while these were namely Panzerschreck detachments, they also had the Fausts.

"Marskin panssarintuhoojat" seems to refer to a special unit, is this so?

No, it was just my reference above. A good book about the anti-tank training and warfare in 1918-45 by Erkki Käkelä, published this year, 500+ pages. I recommend, it has a lot of information about those nifty German weapons, but not only that. It also tells that in early 1944 it was suggested that Finland should buy Nashorn's, but Germans couldn't afford selling them.

[This message has been edited by Schrubbery (edited July 31, 2000).]