The glory of the SS

[Skuderian]

Hi Guys!
I listened your discussion with a smile. I think most of you are americans, so have no direct contact to the last living german members of WW2. If you are really interested in knowing the truth, read "Erinnerungen" from Heinz Guderian, Mansteins "Lost victorys" or "Grenadiere" from Kurt "Panzermeyer" Meyer. Until the end of 1943 all of this guys where volunteers, so they have higher morale than the conscripted one. They also tried many new methods for training. So for 12. SS-Pz. Div. "Hitlerjugend" Drill was forbidden, the most important thing was sports. They were not allowed to drink alcohol, cigarettes where allowed after their 18th birthday.
The only difference between SS-Pz. Div. and Heers Pz. Div. was that in the SS-Pz. Div there were three Bataillons in each Pz. Gren. Regiment instead of two. The logistic was the same for Heer and Waffen-SS, so there was no possibility to equip the Waffen--SS with better weapons. But most of the SS-Divisions where founded in the war, so it was easier to equip new formations with new equipment, instead of doing this thousand miles away. The officiers came from Heer like Hausser,Steiner,Gille,Eicke or Dietrich but there was a lack of young officiers and "Generalstabsoffiziere". It was the only possibilty to promote good soldiers early. So "Panzermeyer" was division commander at the age of 32. Last thing to be said, if you read the memory of Montgomery you will read that he feared the 12. SS-Pz. Div "Hitlerjugend" more than Rommel.

If there are more questions ask me.

Skuderian

[Fabs]

Hi, guys, just came back from my hols to find this interesting debate raging, and I could not resist the urge to join in.

I belong to the school that thinks that "elite" ratings in the game are modelled in a way that can not possibly please all enthusiasts, because it is simply not possible. This is why we have been given the OOB editor and the ability to change almost any aspect that we might disagree with when designing scenarios.

I do it regularly and have no complaints.

As for my position on the great Waffen SS elite or not question, I agree with those who feel that in the game they have been over-rated, while other nationalities/formations have been under-rated.

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Fabs

[Sgt Popov]

We have to consider that the SS units were
of greatly varying quality, especially as the war went on and qualifications were lowered.
Also some, like the unit developed out of Croatians (I believe something like 90 percent moslem) were not much more than paid mercenaries, and cant really be considered
elite, or even decent combat troops. I would have to agree that the MAIN Germanic staffed
SS divisions were elite troops. The mental Nazi brainwashing,and higher level of training given these troops, along with a more physically demanding training regimen, coupled with recieving the latest, greatest
equipment,would classify these troops as elite. What I have trouble with in the game, is the inordinate number of fallschirmjaeger
troops. They frequently outnumber the other types of infantry in campaign battles!!

[gdpsnake]

Who cares? The game is fun and can never really model actual history no matter your point of view. Every battle can be fought with different troops at different times and you get different results. Put 1000 'Audie Murpheys' or 'Bozo the Clowns" in - it's fun not WW2! And speaking of editing, where is this 'fred editor' I keep hearing (reading) about? Will it be (or something similar) included in Version 3?

[Jon Grasham]

Hey, 1000 Bozos could have won the war single handed! Just imagine the shock value of em! 1000 hideous creatures running towards an enemy. They would be terrified, and either run faster than they ever ran before, or just throw their weapons aside, curl up on the ground and hope they would awake from the nightmare!

[Greg McCarty]

I subscribe to the old saying that:
The truth lies somewhere between the extremes. Yes, the SS formations should
exhibit a bit more skill/morale on average than most. No, they they werent all great.
A little reading will clear that up. The idea here is that we want to emulate a certain kind of unit behavior once in a while in the game. Lets leave the political crap to the utopians. I like the quote I read somewhere from a Russian officer: "When
we heard Wiking was in the area, we knew there was going to be trouble."

[Larry Holt]

Originally posted by gdpsnake:
... And speaking of editing, where is this 'fred editor' I keep hearing (reading) about? Will it be (or something similar) included in Version 3?

There is a link to Fred's editor on the Matrix link page.


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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

[Paul Vebber]

I am pretty sure it will be included in ver 3. (It was in the early version that was sent to PC Gamer magazine...)

[John T_MatrixForum]

"The Fact" about Waffen SS is that both sides are right.
Some Waffen SS units where of very high quality: Good kit, good training and brainwashed to belive their racial superiority making them very efficient units.
BUT on the other hand
Waffen SS was also the only(main?) way for Non-Germans to join German forces.
In the begining mainly Volunteers joining the crusade against communism, to a large extent officers and NCO's from occupied Europe.
Later anyone willing to fight russians where accepted without too much asked about previous training or health - "canonfodder accepted"

This is one reason why Waffen SS had units at both sides of the specrum "best" and worst . (Well Best and Worst can always be challenged but hope you gets my Idea)


/John T

[Michael Wermelin]

I have, from time to time, felt that the different nations elite forces, specially the german elite forces needed adjustment. The SS in particular feels overrated in some terms and I don't know if this gloryfication has made it into the game because of the aura of the organization or because of hard facts. Nothing more than well trained political soldiers equipped with the newest and finest gear. But hardly the incarnations of all supreme warriors. I'm perhpas a little too hard in my judgement but the SS seems better than any other elite force and I simply ask why? Shouldn't the finns, canadians or some partisans have as good morale as the SS. Shouldn't the concept of veterans be something to add to the game, so that you could buy veteran infantry in small numbers and add it to your core?

I think the SS are overrated as soldiers, perhaps not by much but they still rise above the rest. It would be great if someone who could clame solid knowledge about this wrote a line or two.

[Voriax]

Not just political soldiers..you might find this site interesting: http://www.uwm.edu/People/jpipes/start.html
Plenty of information about SS and German forces in WW2 in general.

Voriax

[amatteucci]

In fact I think that the 'Elite infantry' status should not be only attributed to Waffen SS forces in the German OOB. I wonder whether a soldier from Grossdeutschalnd Division was worst than any Waffen SS trooper. The best solution IMHO should be to make Heer and SS PzGren squads and give them this Elite status with the same stats, regular infantry and SS Grenadiere from less famous and trained divisions should be rated the same.

Regards,

Amedeo

P.S. Having an experience/morale bonus/malus to be added directly to formations, as in SPWW2v3 should be the best solution. There are elite/normal infantry classifications in SPWaW but what about AFVs? A Soviet Guards tank unit should be better than a regular one, likewise the German Panzerwaffe retained their high experience and morale even after 1942 when the German infantry quality was steadily declining.

[Drake666]

Most Guard units were not that much better then the reguler soviet units. Often a formation would get Guard statis just becouse of one battle. They were not like the SS were the units got only the best personnal and equipment.

[victorhauser]

I'd rather not get too wound up about this topic this time around, but the Waffen SS did not get "the best of the best". Of the 38 Waffen SS divisional units formed during the war less half could be considered "good", and only a handful could be considered "elite".

Most Waffen SS officers were chosen for political reliability rather than combat ability, most of their Wehrmacht counterparts were better trained and more highly skilled. If there is any reason at all for the persistence of the "elite" myth, it stems from the striking visual effect of their uniforms combined with the acknowledged preferential treatment a handful of Waffen SS divisions received regarding TO/Es and equipment replacement priorities. Here's another way to look at it. You could build about three Wehrmacht panzer divisions for two Waffen SS panzer divisions. Which would you rather have, three Wehrmacht or two Waffen SS panzer divisions?

A careful analysis of performance reveals that usually Waffen SS units did not perform as well in combat as regular Wehrmacht units of the same type and size (there are exceptions, but they are exceptions and not the rule). Several notable German generals were reluctant to have Waffen SS units under their command, and Rommel refused to let the Waffen SS into the Afrikakorps at all.

However, as noted above, due to the exceptional size and TO/Es as well as the favored replacement rates of a handful of Waffen SS divisions, the myth of the "elite" Waffen SS is preserved and maintained. Another reason for the "elite" myth is because the nations fighting against the Germans wanted a "bogeyman". And since the Waffen SS stood for everything evil about Nazi Germany, then they were prominantly mentioned in Allied communiques. And such publicity (even if unintended) remains in the minds of the masses.

I personally believe that the two finest German divisions in WW2 were the Grossdeutchland and the 1st Fallschirmjager. The best of the Waffen SS divisions are significantly down the list in my opinion. I suppose we could start a "10 best German divisions" topic (please don't!), but I'm not sure any Waffen SS division would make my list.

[This message has been edited by victorhauser (edited August 21, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by victorhauser (edited August 04, 2000).]