BB spontaneous combustion

[JeffroK]

I'll have to re-read the NG, I thought it said the plates were blown outwards...

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I'll have to re-read the NG, I thought it said the plates were blown outwards...

Nope - inwards. If you look at the thread i posted above, it shows a pic... Rickover theorized that the reflection of the blast wave off the bottom shoved the plates inwards after they had been blown outwards. From what i read, most (not all) engineers that have studied this find it a dubious proposition.

[treespider]

Does anyone recall the incident where an American plane crashed and took out something like 98 parked aircraft?

[rtrapasso]

The US battleship had a turret explosion during an exercise. The Navy claimed it was suicide/sabotage by a gay sailor on the turret crew that had been outed.

i've read at least one book and several articles on this... the whole business was very curious. The sailor in question had recently made over his insurance policy to a crewman who was apparently the object of his affection, and was acting very strangely.

After the turret the crewman worked in blew up, the sailor's family alerted the Navy with their suspicions that the sailor had sabotaged the turret and caused the explosion.

The Navy was happy to latch onto this... they claimed that they had detected some foreign substances that should not have been there, and thought they were part of an explosive device. They also claimed that the loading proceedures could not have caused an explosion. So the Navy assigned the blame of the explosion on the sailor.

The family (maybe other family members?) THEN claimed the sailor couldn't have done it. After a long investigation, it was discovered that the loading procedures COULD have caused the explosion (esp. with the aged propellant bags)... the Navy then "exonerated" the sailor.

But notice: the Navy did not actually clear the sailor of explosion. it was decided that the explosion could have been caused by the propellant bag (and maybe or even probably it was) - but one can not say with certainty that the sailor didn't do it, and the final conclusion kind of glosses over the family's original suspicions and the sailor's behavior.

So, what was the cause? Probably it was from the rapid loading procedure combined with the aged propellant bags, but this is just a best guess...

[Terminus]

I seem to recall a JAG episode about the case...

[Ron Saueracker]

Pretty sure the only British dreadnougt lost to a non-combat related magazine explosion was HMS Vanguard at Scapa Flow during WWI. Italian Leonardo da Vinci met the same fate aroumd the same time too IIRC.

[goodboyladdie]

Hi Ron

Nice to see you back on the forum. I agree with the post somewhere above about Massie's "Castles of Steel" - fantastic book. Has anybody read his other books? What are they like?

[Nikademus]

IIRC, the German light cruiser Karlsruhe also suffered an internal explosion, most likely a magazine explosion in the Carrabean early on in the war and was wrecked.

[Fishbed]

French pre-dreadnough Liberté also blew up while at anchor with the rest of the battlefleet in Toulon in 1911
http://perso.orange.fr/marius.autran/gl ... berte.html

To the tragedy of the Mutsu, one must add too that over a hundred cadets and 40 instructors of the IJN from Tsuchiura group were visiting the battleship at this very moment, something indeed very serious for the naval aviation in 1943...

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Rickover theorized that the reflection of the blast wave off the bottom shoved the plates inwards after they had been blown outwards. From what i read, most (not all) engineers that have studied this find it a dubious proposition.

Dubious? Even if we know that such reflection and shoving of the plates inward actually happened (and it is 100% sure) when french BB Liberté sunk?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Rickover theorized that the reflection of the blast wave off the bottom shoved the plates inwards after they had been blown outwards. From what i read, most (not all) engineers that have studied this find it a dubious proposition.

Dubious? Even if we know that such reflection and shoving of the plates inward actually happened (and it is 100% sure) when french BB Liberté sunk?

No - not that it couldn't happen, but that the geometry and the measurements of the depth, size of the crater, etc. made at Havana harbor didn't correlate with the established hydronamics... thus the theory that this occured in the case of the Maine is dubious.

[Redan]

So: you have a turret with three rifled guns each of which fires an armor piercing or high explosive shell that weighs about as much as an old volkswagen bug/ they are delivered to the turret from an elevator through a shaft from the magazine; a couple bags of black powder wrapped in silk are stuffed in behind the shell? is this right so far? no coins in the pockets of crew, no wedding rings, no St Christopher medals, gold chains, earrings; static electricity...spark... black powder explosion... backdraft down the elevator shaft to magazine... turret of battleship sounds like dangerous place to be.


Sidebar: Imaginary e-mail: Just because the battleship blew up I don't think it's fair my opponent should get the points-- he didn't do anything to earn them! I want this fixed in the next patch!

[Nikademus]

yep....thats why saftey interlocks were important. US BB's had metal scuttles to keep flash from reaching the power magazines. Got to look at em close up when visiting the Massachussetts. Still....it was scary to examine the diagram in Gazarke's US Battleships regarding the Iowa explosion. It backblast went down the barbette pretty far but the scuttles prevented any getting into a powder mag IIRC.

[BLUESBOB]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

The US battleship had a turret explosion during an exercise. The Navy claimed it was suicide/sabotage by a gay sailor on the turret crew that had been outed.

i've read at least one book and several articles on this... the whole business was very curious. The sailor in question had recently made over his insurance policy to a crewman who was apparently the object of his affection, and was acting very strangely.

After the turret the crewman worked in blew up, the sailor's family alerted the Navy with their suspicions that the sailor had sabotaged the turret and caused the explosion.

The Navy was happy to latch onto this... they claimed that they had detected some foreign substances that should not have been there, and thought they were part of an explosive device. They also claimed that the loading proceedures could not have caused an explosion. So the Navy assigned the blame of the explosion on the sailor.

The family (maybe other family members?) THEN claimed the sailor couldn't have done it. After a long investigation, it was discovered that the loading procedures COULD have caused the explosion (esp. with the aged propellant bags)... the Navy then "exonerated" the sailor.

But notice: the Navy did not actually clear the sailor of explosion. it was decided that the explosion could have been caused by the propellant bag (and maybe or even probably it was) - but one can not say with certainty that the sailor didn't do it, and the final conclusion kind of glosses over the family's original suspicions and the sailor's behavior.

So, what was the cause? Probably it was from the rapid loading procedure combined with the aged propellant bags, but this is just a best guess...

I just got through reading about his extensively on the internet. Yes, the Navy never did determine what exactly caused the explosion. But as for these two men, Hartwig and Truitt, exhibiting "bizarre behaivour", this was just gossip from the other sailors. It seems both men were quiet, religious, and non-drinkers...that's what passed for bizarre in the service!

Probably the biggest red flag that should have sent the Navy's investigation...and subsequent smear campaign against these two men...was the fact that Hartwig had never been assigned to that turret before. He only that day found himself working there as a last minute replacement. Since the sabotage of the turret would have taken knowlegde that one EVEN WORKED in the turret...it seems incredible that the Navy jumped to this conclusion.

Later investigations have found that the Master Chief Gunner's Mate in charge that day was making unauthorized changes to the loads. The gun that blew was shorted some powder bags, and there was an over-ram. This is more than likely the cause of the explosion.

[Nikademus]

The navy needed a scapegoat because re-activating and/or maintaining the Iowa's from the 80's onward was always a highly politically charged battle with Congress. Last thing the Navy would have wanted was to give [pardon the pun] the enemies of the Battleship {read big costly relics crowd} that kind of "ammo" (dangerous ships likely to explode due to old style tech)

Not to say it exonerates the smear campaign but i can see how the incident would have made many brass nervous.

[rtrapasso]

I just got through reading about his extensively on the internet. Yes, the Navy never did determine what exactly caused the explosion. But as for these two men, Hartwig and Truitt, exhibiting "bizarre behaivour", this was just gossip from the other sailors. It seems both men were quiet, religious, and non-drinkers...that's what passed for bizarre in the service!

i am not sure the "bizarre behavior was manifested on the ship, but was reported by the one sailor's family (based on letters, conversations, etc.) - but it has been a number of years since i read the book, and i don't recall all the circumstances.

[Redan]

So it wasn't homosexuals who damaged the battleship, but MOTHRA who ate holes in the silk powder bags? [&:][;)]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Redan

So it wasn't homosexuals who damaged the battleship, but MOTHRA who ate holes in the silk powder bags? [&:][;)]

[:D] [:D]

[Terminus]

You make that sound like such a surprise...[:'(]

[Capt Henry_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

Hi Ron

Nice to see you back on the forum. I agree with the post somewhere above about Massie's "Castles of Steel" - fantastic book. Has anybody read his other books? What are they like?

While I think "Castles of Seel" was tremendous, I actually enjoyed Dreadnought more. "Peter the Great" and "Nicholas and Alexandra" are also very well done. Highly recommended reading.