BB South Dakota Damage

[MineSweeper]

Here is a damage report for the USS South Dakota after the 2nd night action at Guadalcanal.....Intresting that she was only hit by 1 - 14" shell, all the others were of a smaller caliber......

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2892/b ... otaqa8.jpg

[JJB647]

Nice shot with the one 14" shell. Seems odd that only one of the 14" shells hit. Wonder how close the rest in the salvo came.
Cool graphic. Thanks.

[MineSweeper]

Seems like the coning tower took most of the hits.....

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Here is a damage report for the USS South Dakota after the 2nd night action at Guadalcanal.....Intresting that she was only hit by 1 - 14" shell, all the others were of a smaller caliber......

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2892/b ... otaqa8.jpg

Did that Japanese 14" hit (that detonated on barbette) disabled #3 Turret on SoDak?


Leo "Apollo11"

[Nikademus]

The turret wasn't disabled. There's some dispute over the type of shell that struck it. I've also read that it was a glancing blow.

[RevRick]

If my rapidly becoming overloaded memory is correct, that hit did jam the #3 turret in train.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Here is a damage report for the USS South Dakota after the 2nd night action at Guadalcanal.....Intresting that she was only hit by 1 - 14" shell, all the others were of a smaller caliber......

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2892/b ... otaqa8.jpg

Did that Japanese 14" hit (that detonated on barbette) disabled #3 Turret on SoDak?


Leo "Apollo11"

At some point, the circuit breakers all went out (rumor was that they had been wired down) so EVERYTHING was disabled... but once she got out of combat, i think the damage was deemed relatively superficial which would imply (the turret) wasn't knocked out permanently.

[spence]

Far more germaine to the outcome of the fight was what the Washington did to Kirishima with 9 x 16"[:D]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: spence

Far more germaine to the outcome of the fight was what the Washington did to Kirishima with 9 x 16"[:D]

But let us not forget that Kirishima was vintage WWI design... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Nikademus]

the prime factor was that Kirishima never saw it coming. [;)]

[MineSweeper]

I also thought that the Kirshima was only armed with 14 inch HE rounds....

[Nikademus]

Some sources cite that she had special/HE ammo loaded in the turrets initially as the mission was to bombard Henderson. However there's dispute over whether or not she was actually firing AP by the time of the SoDak hit. Cambell's says it was HE. Author Richard Worth (also known as "Tiornu") thinks it was AP based on the time index. Others think the damage supports an HE shell. One source i have describes the hit as glancing due to the curvature of the barbette so ultimately we'll probably never know for sure.

[Tiornu]

The barbette hit was certainly not a glancing hit. You may be able to tell from the diagram--the shell went through the hatch coaming and then hit the barbette at its midpoint. This indicates a hit about as nearly dead-center as possible.
Kirishima was carrying three types of ammo. This hit was definitley not a Type 3 shell, which carried only a small black-powder canister of explosive to disperse the incendiary capsules. There is an argument for a Type 0 HE shell, but I believe the most probable is the Type 91/1 AP shell. As Nik mentioned, this fits best with the timeline. Deformation of SoDak's weather deck is extensive, but I believe this resulted not from a large HE filler but from the "fact" that the Type 91 shell wedged into the joint between the barbette and deck and forced the deck down. If you look at photos of SoDak, you will see that the deck around the barbette is almost totally free of splinter damage, which would be improbable in the case of an HE hit. But if an AP shell deflected downward into the joint, the spray of lateral splinters would run roughly parallel with the deck, leaving the planks unruffled but gouging the gas seal and barrels; and that is exactly what happened.
The SoDak DR is kind of bizarre, being written up some years after the battle--1948-ish? It strikes me as the least valuable/reliable of the reports I've looked at.
In my view, the traditional figure of nine 16in hits against Kirishima is rubbish. It comes from the recollections of one Kirishima officer (a gunnery officer?) who also mentioned 40-50 5in hits. This would require the secondary battery to achieve a hit rate twice as high as the main battery's. It's ridiculous, especially considering that the 5in descent angle at the battle range would be 2-3 times as steep. A Kirishima damage-control officer drew up a diagram that hints at as many as 20 16in hits, and this fits with the probabilities much more readily.

[Nikademus]

Thats interesting. Where did you come across the diagram for Kirishima?

[MineSweeper]

Actually the SD battle damage report is the most reliable one that can be had IMO.
The references to the damage reports are highly regarded....

C.O. - South Dakota Action Report 12/19/1942
C.O. - South Dakota ltr. 12/08/1942
C.O. - South Dakota ltr. 2/28/1943
Commadant - New York Naval Yard 4/19/1943 (where most of the damage was repaired)
U.S. Naval Proving Ground - Dahlgren VA report on Japanese 8" projectiles
Photos of the damage

Here is a picture of the 14" hit on the SD......

[Nikademus]

what was the exact path of the shell and AoI again?

[MineSweeper]

Here is the actual cover of the damage report.....Bureau of Ships/Navy Dept.

[Tiornu]

Actually the SD battle damage report is the most reliable one that can be had IMO.

Why do you feel that way? All that damage, and the authors reviewed only one splinter. Though referencing the NTM report on shells, they also cite shell types that never existed.

Where did you come across the diagram for Kirishima?

In a Japanese-language published source.

what was the exact path of the shell and AoI again?

If you look at the diagram, you can see the impact point on the barbette. The hatch coaming as abreast that point. The picture that Minesweeper posted shows the radiating cracks from the impact point. Unfortunately the photos you find in damage reports will never be great quality. There's another picture of the barbette that shows two points of damage in the armor, one above the deck level and one directly beneath it below the deck level. I believe this reflects the damage of the original impact plus damage caused by the shell nose after it tipped downward and was thrown into the barbette by the shell detonation. A glancing hit would not have created this sort of symmetry.
From memory, the impact distorted the bearing race and forced some plating into it. Eventually the plating got so mashed up in there that the turret was declared out of action. However, this wasn't until well after the fight and, I think, reflects the desire to prevent further mashing rather than actual jamming.

[MineSweeper]

ORIGINAL: Tiornu


The SoDak DR is kind of bizarre, being written up some years after the battle--1948-ish? It strikes me as the least valuable/reliable of the reports I've looked at.

And actually there are photos of the damage that makes this report conclusive....
Hits 13, 14,and 15
There are 12 more photos of the other shell hits.
one more pic...

These three holes were caused by 8" shells that hit the superstructure without detonating....

[Nikademus]

Any theories as to why the shell didn't preform better given the range?