The OOOOOOONLY Comment you need to hear

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Well this sums up a lot of issues

From the horses mouth as it were in David's own words

"Hi Guys

Thanks for your support. I am going to come right out and say it...... there will be no more Mega Campaigns for SPWaW. Sales have been poor and no really sees the point at this time. We will be making some for Combat Leader God willing.

Let me thank everyone for spreading the word to the world. We need the help and its great to see our fans supporting us.

David Heath"



Steel Panthers won't die (of course not, why else would it even exist if we didn't like it that much). But David's words say all that is needed to be said on the matter.

This means that odds are, Matrix can't indulge more than they already have. Its been a great journey, but all journeys do indeed end. So we have North Africa, Russia, and Pacific three really cool MCs.

We have version 7.1 and I suppose the full version 7.1 will appear soon. And there is the wealth of thingys out there to indulge. Independent scenarios, Manuals to download, alternate language files etc.

So there it is. The journey is winding down. I can see it being something that some won't let end naturally. But that is always the case with things eh. More MC devoted to a game that isn't able to make sales is not a viable notion. Of course the cds will be there until they are no longer there.

I won't be in the line asking for more after 7.1

Not because I don't wish it. But only because I don't have the nerve to actually ask for more.

Combat Leader will be the first game I ever bought online and without having had the chance to give it the hairy eyeball in a store for several hours. I am an impulse buyer, and being scottish, inherently cheap heheh. So thats my way of saying how much I care.

The Steel Panthers forum will almost certainly continue until we make it stop intentionally.

Me I will play Steel Panthers right up to the last minute. Boy I hope though, that I get a copy of CL without to much distress (cash wise). I don't want to be the kid watching others play.

[MacCready]

Do be too cheap Les,Life ends eventually...

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

ya could be a bit more specific though heheh

[MacCready]

Though I cheer Combat Leader/Close Assualt on,I still feel that
there's a hardcore group that will never surrender Steel Panthers**.

I should talk,I own several copies of ALL versions of Steel Panthers (1,2,3,SPWAW,SPWW2,and soon SP-MBT*)

*SP-MBT is 1946-2020 ,yes you heard right.
**I'm one of these people

So I'm thinking that this SP game will FINALLY do modern warfare correctly..

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Well old doesnt mean useless of course

it was Squad Leader that got the awards for instance not Advanced Squad Leader.

Saw a mint condition copy of Squad Leader the other day

Was miserable the whole day I didnt have the %&$*%$%^@$^# lousy nine bucks that would have gotten it for me.

I sure aint going to turf me Steel Panthers that readily of course.

I know that there is a lot of people out there that use Non Matrix based Steel Panthers stuff.

Then again I have a redesign of a popular Rolegame I like to play called Alternity. Love the mechanics but I want it to be Fantasy genre.

Matrix is proof positive that software dies only when people are darn good and ready to let it do so.

Probably a lot of versions of Steel Panthers out there that have lots of merit.

Every tree after all has a work of art in it somewhere eh:)

[ruxius]

Good speaking Les !

The core group of SPWAW supporters did its best...
But we are not enough...I understand costs are more than what we only can provide...

[MacCready]

Sarge,

I heard abit about this squad leader game,are you wanting the original board game by Avalon Hill or the Microprose PC game?

There are copies of both on ebay.com up for auction...

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Regarding Squad Leader and Advanced Squad Leader

No I am talking about the board game in both cases, certainly not that false advertising hasn't earned the name software piece of crap computer game called squad leader which has only WW2 in common with the game originally called Squad Leader (yes the computer game makes me emotional heheh).

Hasbro owns that which is all Squad Leader as well as Advanced Squad Leader and the name Avalon Hill.

MMP has been granted exclusive rights to market ASL and is a fine operation in its own right, but the company does so knowing that Hasbro still owns it in the end.
I guess MMP and Matrix share a common condition. They don't actually own that which has made their name well known to gamers.

Now to my credit, I own virtually everything that was ever sold for ASL under the reigns of the original Avalon Hill and much that has been released since. But MMP is not getting quite to market penetration into Canada the Avalon Hill once had.
And if you want to think horrifying, just picturing what getting ASL into canada involves by mail heheh. The game's major components are all in or around 100 bucks canadian ie rule book or primary modules. A basic working ASL game is like 200 bucks.
Glad I got all mine during the glorious spend spend spend days of the 80's when I was working and healthy.
I don't even want to know how much a full ASL collection is worth. It would keep me awake at night.
Suffice it to say. When I moved into my current home here 7 years ago. My first thought was not about wife or son, it was will my wargames be safe here heheh (I ain't kidding eh).

But the days of spending 100 bucks casually are gone. Now its one serious purchase in the year and hope it was a good idea. If it takes Matrix till next year to finish Combat Leader you wont see me crying. I already used valentines birthday and fathers day in advance on Lost Victories heheh. If I am lucky I might sneak in some cash woodworking this summer, but I can't expect that (and my computer is whining for a new monitor as it goes hehe).

[V-man]

Originally posted by MacCready
Though I cheer Combat Leader/Close Assualt on,I still feel that
there's a hardcore group that will never surrender Steel Panthers**.

I should talk,I own several copies of ALL versions of Steel Panthers (1,2,3,SPWAW,SPWW2,and soon SP-MBT*)

*SP-MBT is 1946-2020 ,yes you heard right.
**I'm one of these people

So I'm thinking that this SP game will FINALLY do modern warfare correctly..

WRT SP-MBT, where do I get this????

[MacCready]

Not finished yet,around June it will be done I'm hearing.

The same people that made Steel Panthers WW2 are making it.

Being that it will be recoded with the SPWW2 version 5 code instead of Steel Panthers 3 like SPWAW,there will probably be cool SPWAW features that you won't see in Steel Panthers-MBT.


But it will cover an extensive range of modern conflict 1946-2020

I cant wait.

I still feel that Combat Leader is the game to watch,and will redefine this type of game.
c'mon modern...

[John David]

Sarge,

I agree with what you said about any future MC's.

I was one of the people who posted a thread last week asking if there would be any more. In my excitement of getting and playing them recently, I forgot about the problems in achieving the sales figures that Paul mentioned about, (silly me:( ).

I know that I will be playing SPWAW for many years to come as I have continued to play SP's 1,2 & 3! There will always be materials in the form of scenarios and campaigns being created for the game by the many fans and developers like "Wild Bill" et all.

I too look forward to the new Matrix games and I will be purchasing them when they come out.

SPWAW will always be playable for me, even if nothing new ever again comes out for it!

John

[John David]

Hey MacCready,

What is this SP-MBT is 1946-2020 that you are refering to about?

Can you give us more info on this and who is going to produce this?

Thanks

John

[MacCready]

John:


Here's the link for SP-MBT info...




http://www.wargamer.com/spcammo/page4.asp

[John David]

Thanks Mac!

I'm going to check this out right away.

John

[John David]

Mac,

I didn't realize that this was being done by SP Camo Workshop.

I have SP WW2 V.5, and I have the site bookmarked.
I haven't been there in a few weeks.
I'm glad that they are going to do this as I also like to participate in battles with modern weapons.

Thanks again for letting me know:)

John

[KG Erwin]

SPWaW is the first tactical game that I've had that I actually have fun with. All of this, PLUS the additional scenarios available through various fan sites AND the OOB and campaign utilities, etc., ALL FREE! It's easy to get spoiled after all this , and now we expect more for nothing in return. Now, Les, think about the realities of the wargaming business. Matrix is trying to fill a gap in a niche buying community that is indeed very narrow. To attract potential buyers, they initially offer a FREE reworked game. Brilliant move. Attract potential buyers of new products, guys who have never previously played wargames, etc. Matrix is now one of the few wargame design companies left in existence. The true make or break phase is in the quality of the new products the company has in development. Combat Leader seems to me, IMO, to be the make or break product. This is the successor to SPWaW, also incorporating features from the Close Combat series, which I bought AFTER I played SPWaW. I'm willing to pay for a game that surpasses the previously mentioned efforts. If you think about it, we DO owe these guys for giving us a sample, free of charge, of what they are capable of achieving through their hard work and listening to gamers like me and you. This concept of player input is THE key to keeping the wargame genre alive. Les, and the rest of you (and me), think about it. I don't mean to sound like a PBS pledge drive, BUT the wargame industry is definitely an endangered species.

[ZoomBoy27]

I wouldn't single out Les too much. Some people have financial limits that others don't. This is a community and there's other ways to contribute. If CL does go bust, I still think we'll have a good community and Les would be a good part of it.

It's the people not the package.


ZoomBoy

[WhiteRook]

Matrix is doing a great job of keeping the hobby alive - plain and simple.
I am afraid with the demise of SSI and TalonSoft it is only though On-Line game compines that we will see any more good war games. Matrix and Big Time are the leaders right now I feel.
Like David said, by gamers for gamers. There are so very-very many fine people around the globe that are contributing their time and talents to keep the flame alive if you will.
Steel Panthers will always hold a special place in my heart, it was the first computer war game that made my dreams of a war game come true! But even though I have severl copies of it, I don't play SP 1 anymore. I have found that the fond memories I have are of it are good enough. I can't seem to make myself go backwards if you know what I mean.
I love SPWAW in all it versions, and SPWW2 and so on..... But I am also excited about combat leader and the such. Face it guys, it just keeps getting better and better! And as long as Matrix keeps producing quality games - they have my business.

[Brigz]

Quoting Whiterook's last message,

"I am afraid with the demise of SSI and TalonSoft it is only though On-Line game compines that we will see any more good war games. Matrix and Big Time are the leaders right now I feel."


Don't forget HPS Simulations. They are putting out some very good titles and John Tiller is continuing his "Talonsoft" games there. They just released about four new games including Campaign Corinth and Napoleon's Russian campaign plus many more WWII titles. And if you're pinching pennies, try some of the online game stores like Chips and Bits.

So, don't worry, there are plenty more wargames out there and many more to come. And remember, with all the free tools available Steel Panthers is endless. Just a little blood, sweat and tears and you can have all the scenarios you want, not to mention the scenarios posted by other fans. I've been wargaming since the sixties and I believe the hobby is bigger, better, and more alive than ever.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

A common enough error perhaps in thinking, understandable really, is that "wargaming" is only done on a computer in this day and age.

Actually where dollars and cents are measured, in the last 5 years I have purchased numerous wargames. None had anything to do with my computer though.

I have seen quite a few good titles released in the last few years as well. Of course there is MMP and they are doing fine keeping ASL alive and on the shelf. Not bad as that game has been on the shelf in some capacity for more than 10 years as well.

Another significant company (at least in my opinion) is Columbia Games. They have released both a historical design which started with East Front (also has West, Med., Volga, and one other I think labelled "Front). Also think they have a package that unifies them all.
I am perfectly happy to call these the best effort to come of of the 90's as well.
Additionally they have Victory: The Blocks of War.
Both the historical and the Victory designs employ wooden blocks for counters. Very unique I must say. Limited fog of war handled incredibly easily. I have all but Volga Front, and 6 persons worth of sets for the normally Red vs Blue basic set for Victory.

No computer value admittedly, but I have found a table game creates a new wargamer at a speed computers have yet to master.
"Think your smart eh, prove it" plunks game on table. Process takes like 10 seconds. I cant even load a game on my computer in 10 seconds let alone hook a new player that easily.

Hard to say what Matrix could do, but I am fairly sure they could easily tackle online marketing of cutting edge or older established table top games.
Hey who said Matrix has to just be about selling computer games. Wargaming is wargaming eh.
I am of course not expecting Matrix to suddenly think "hmmm Leslie has a neat idea." But when Matrix becomes an old hand at marketing through their online connections, it would amuse me to buy an occasional wargame of the non computer wargame sort from them. I would also be pleased knowing it was a purchase from people I know and respect.

Currently as I speak, I suffer from to much distance between to few retailers that have to much trouble securing new wargames. When I think of the time and gas to go to the nearby city to "maybe" see a wargame on the shelf. Shipping a boxed game won't be something I will shy away from. It costs me 10 bucks in gas to get to that retailer eh.