Carriers when?

Carriers At War is Strategic Studies Group famed simulation of Fleet Carrier Air and Naval Operations in the Pacific from 1941 - 1945.

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NimitsTexan
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by NimitsTexan »

ORIGINAL: spence

{In response to Freeboy}

(Further, and mostly as a historical aside relating to the whole Midway concept; the Japanese landing force that was supposed to capture the island was a patheticly inadequate joke in relationship to the opposition they would have faced: two battalions with no weapon heavier than an 81 mm mortar, with no liason with each other or the fleet, committed against two different objectives which could only reached by wading a minimum of 200 yards through the surf).

You know, I am very glad Tully and Parshall addressed that in Shattered Sword. Even though I admit to originally buying into the "Miracle at Midway" theory, even then, I had always wondered at the various writings (both historical and fictional) and games that seemed to take it for granted that Midway would fall if the USN lost the carrier battle. Given the USMC's success in defending Wake against the first landing there, the inability of the IJA to force the issue in the Philippines tactically against USMC, US Army, and Philippino troops in Bataan prior to starving them for 3 months, and the Japanese's general "shoestring" approach to amphibious logistics and their "throw more men at it" answer to most tactical problems they came across, I had alsways though it more likely an intial SNL assault would fail even with local air and naval superiority. Now at least I can point to Tully and Parshall to back me up when anyone accuses me of talking crazy.
ORIGINAL: spence

I have serious reservations about "Carriers at War". Matrix's UV and WitP depict carrier operations as essentially identical in the US Navy and IJN (and to a lesser extent the RN). In actuality the 3 navies all developed unique ships, planes, and doctrines and capabilities. If CAW, like UV and WitP depicts carrier warfare as the US USN against the USN that has "funny sounding" ship names then it will in my estimation be a complete failure as a simulation.

That is an interesting point. In fairness to the developers, prior to Parshall and Tully, there were no English-language authors who tried to understand the differences between IJN and USN carrier doctrine, or really even realized that they existed. I think the previous assumption that IJN carrier operations were similar to those in the USN was understandable, given the general lack of records to the contrary and some superficial similarities in the design and organization of their carriers (both generally had open bows; unarmored flight decks; above deck islands; air groups divided among fighters, dive bombers, and torpedo bombers, etc.). And of course, any game originally designed prior to publication of books such as Shattered Sword are going to be built on those same assumptions.

Now, keeping in mind everything Parshall and Tully wrote, I am still not sure that it would make much difference for a wargame such as "Carriers at War." A lot of it, of course, would depend on the exact level of detail of the game system, and the degree to which the designers want to force the player to adhere to doctrine (disregarding for the moment whether or not it is the right doctrine). In truth, most wargames do not require their players to utilize the doctrines and tactics of the nation or service they are playing, and generally allow a much greater freedom to improvise or simply make things up as they play than most real generals and admirals would have had. This is, in point of fact, one reason why we refer to them as "wargames" rather than "simulations." Some things, of course, are easy enough to represent in game. The IJN's neglect of damage control, for example, can certainly be included by lowering the appropriate values for their ships. On the other hand, is the fact that the IJN loaded and armed their aircraft in the hanger's really that germane to game such as CAW? Aside from differences in the time it took them to arm a strike (which could be included in CAW easily enough), would there be any real difference, from the point of view of gameplay, between that system and the USN's? Fueled and armed aircraft are a mortal danger to any navies' carrier, no matter its standard procedure, as illustrated by the Franklin, which was kept afloat only because of the Essex's superior design and her crew's excellent damage control techniques. In the world of CAW, getting caught with fueled and armed planes aboard is going to bad, I suspect; the difference between above and below decks is probably small enough to make it questionable whether it is even worth attempting to simulate.

Other doctrinal differences, such as the IJN preference to send off big coordinated "deckload" strikes as opposed to the USN's early war tendency to more less throw anything they could get in the air in the general direction of the enemy a carrier fleet in an often seemingly haphazard manner, would be extremely hard to implement without severely limiting the player's ability to control the game and making the game itself exceedingly complex. Moreover, those types of doctrines did frequently change. In just about every carrier action in 1942-1943, the USN tried some new variation of coordinating large strikes, and by late 1943 was using a "deckload" procedure very similar to that practice by Kido Butai in 1942. Moreover, as demonstrated by the Hiryu at Midway, even the IJN could improvise if it became desperate enough.
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freeboy
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by freeboy »

Again, I step back, look at what they had, look at what "we" us , had, and say, very lucky. the planes off Midway , including 17's wheree not in a league with the japs. did we have p40s at midway? maybe I am wrong as it has been such a long time, but I think on this one, we are going to agree to disagree.
Points I conceed, Doctrines where different.
B. US had Great intell vs terrible JAp intel.
C I am only looking at the naval battle not the invasion plans.
D Experience pilots as a rule do better than inexperienced pilots. What would this indicate?
F Better us carriers , in just abiout every area.
G.
Imagine you "as Jap commander" know there is a fleet of ships , or fleets of ships oposing you.
What chioces do you have? R
A. Bring in the BB's and pound the shit out of midway and draw out the carrieers. this may sacrific some ships but would strain the amount of US planins and posibly reveal the location of the ships. Wait a three day delay and bring down thee two ships two the north. 72 hours at full speed probably gets these ships able to enter as reinforcments should the battle not be resolved in day one.
B. Look for the enemy carriers and destroy them, using the cvl plains as scouts.

Arguing that htese could never be done by a japaneese cvommander in real life is like saying there are no strategic choices.
These chioces would not have been done, but could have been done.

In reality, HISTORICALY.. if the US torpedo planes had not drawn off the carriers fighters and the carriers launched all planes asap instead of changing bomb loadsd, thus avioding decks full of planes, the outcome probably would have been several damaged Jap carriers, perhapps one sunk, and all us carriers dammaged and possibley all sunk.

This is all conjecture, and while it is important to note that the US planes dwhere not terrible, they all had real issues, as did the pilots.
I think it is a LEADERSHIP issue... not a nuts and bolts planes ship bunker batalion bean couneter issue.. those factor in but to myself it is the choices made, thus the leaders that bear the weight of responsibility.
I respect those opinions that disagree, but I am unmoved. thanks guys for keeping this civil, game on!
"Tanks forward"
kkoovvoo
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by kkoovvoo »

ORIGINAL: freeboy

In reality, HISTORICALY.. if the US torpedo planes had not drawn off the carriers fighters and the carriers launched all planes asap instead of changing bomb loadsd, thus avioding decks full of planes, the outcome probably would have been several damaged Jap carriers, perhapps one sunk, and all us carriers dammaged and possibley all sunk.

If If If [8|]

If Hiryu was attacked and hit by dive bombers too, Yorktown wouldnt be hit.
If any of B17/B26/TBF/SB2U from Midway would hit Jap carriers, the result would be even more one-sided...
If all American CV groups found Jap carriers....
spence
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by spence »

Arguing that htese could never be done by a japaneese cvommander in real life is like saying there are no strategic choices.
These chioces would not have been done, but could have been done.

In point of fact, though, the IJN Commander who actually mattered, Nagumo, was extremely constrained as to what he was to accomplish and when he was to accomplish it by Yamamoto.  To simulate the Battle of Midway it would be best to make the Player either Yamamoto: in which case Nagumo would have to programmed to follow IJN Doctrine precisely (waiting to get the chance to launch a deckload strike by carrier division) or the player could be Nagumo, who would be assigned a whole bunch of objectives to be achieved according to a strict timetable or simultaneously.  I'd say making the player Nagumo would be the better choice.

To allow the Player to be both would be to fight a battle that never occurred; essentially a Japanese Fantasy Scenario.    
fabforrest
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by fabforrest »

a very interesting discussion. have learned some stuff.

have not learned when CAW will be out (i am still betting june), but have learned stuff.
NimitsTexan
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by NimitsTexan »

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Again, I step back, look at what they had, look at what "we" us , had, and say, very lucky. the planes off Midway , including 17's wheree not in a league with the japs. did we have p40s at midway? maybe I am wrong as it has been such a long time, but I think on this one, we are going to agree to disagree.


US planes on Midway included USAAF B-26s and B-17D/Es, USN TBF-1s and PBY-5/5As, and USMC F4F-3s, F2A-3s, SBD-2s and SB2U-3s. The problem with the planes at Midway is that the USMC crews were very inexperianced and the USAAF crews had done very little training in anti-shipping weapons delivery. With the exception of the F2A-3 and SB2U-3, the actual aircraft available on Midway were just as good as those of the IJN. The fact that those 60 odd bombers did not manage a single hit or seriously dent the IJN CAP, while partially attributable to the poor performance of the US pilots, still demonstrated some good "fortune" on the part of the IJN.
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pasternakski
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: freeboy
Imagine you "as Jap commander" know there is a fleet of ships , or fleets of ships oposing you.
What chioces do you have? R
A. Bring in the BB's and pound the shit out of midway and draw out the carrieers. this may sacrific some ships but would strain the amount of US planins and posibly reveal the location of the ships. Wait a three day delay and bring down thee two ships two the north. 72 hours at full speed probably gets these ships able to enter as reinforcments should the battle not be resolved in day one.

You know, this, in a hundred words or less, tells me that, if I were Nimitz and Spruance, I would much rather have fought you than Yamamoto and Nagumo.

The Japanese knew almost nothing about where the American fleet was. Further, they were confident that, even if the Americans did show up, they would have two CVs at most, Lexington and Yorktown having been sunk at Coral Sea. In their arrogant belief in their own invincibility, the Japanese were pursuing a plan that, while not doomed to failure, certainly, on hindsight, appears to have been determinedly headed in that direction.

The "BBs" were either attached to the carriers as escorts or following hundreds of miles behind. The only ships in any position to bombard Midway were the four cruisers moving in advance of the transport groups. The two Kongo-class BBs with Nagumo could not be detached, as the CVs would have been left with no escort. The old BB lumbering along with Zuiho would have been SBD meat (and even the TBDs might have had a field day). Yamato's group was hundreds of miles from the scene and could have no effect on events.

Do you really think the Japanese would have held their carriers back and sent in surface ships without air cover?

How in the world could the Japanese have delayed for three days waiting for the Aleutians carriers to arrive? The Japanese were already at the end of their logistical tether as it was.

Besides, the Aleutians operation was part of the "grand scheme." To have changed that would have meant re-doing the entire adventure. Now, that's fine, I guess, but what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If the Japanese command is allowed to play god on their side, the American command must be given the same opportunity. In anticipation of the coming attack, the Midway garrison is heavily reinforced. Mines are laid in critical places. Additional fighter aircraft (P-40s in particular) and aircraft service personnel are brought in from Pearl. A surface action group consisting of three old BBs and several cruisers and destroyers lurks east of Midway thirsting for an opportunity to get some payback for December 7.

And on and on. As kkoovvoo so astutely puts it, "If If If." And if the dawg hadn't stopped to take a sh1t, he woulda caught the rabbit.

The way I see it, luck had little to do with the Midway outcome. But, believe as you wish (and I am sure you will).
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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freeboy
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by freeboy »

Feel better after insulting me?
My point is that the GAME players would know the US has assets in the area.
In the Hystorical reflections one can only guess, and really, look at four carriers worth, plus cvl attacking three cv's, had the JAps had as a focus eliminating these carriers my OPUINION is things would have been different.
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fabforrest
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by fabforrest »

you guys should fight each other when CAW comes out and file an AAR.  [:D]
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pasternakski
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Feel better after insulting me?
Come on, no insult intended, and I thought you acute enough to note the jocular tone. I just see it differently from how you do. If you can't handle that without getting the hair up on your back, forget it.

This has pretty much been beaten to death, anyway. Sayonara.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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John 3rd
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by John 3rd »

Just read Shattered Sword for a fantastic perspective that clears up a TON of what is being argued about here.
 
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pasternakski
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by pasternakski »

Be sure to check the posts of those who have certain problems both with the accuracy and objectivity of this tome.
Put my faith in the people
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dudalb_slith
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by dudalb_slith »

I join the chorus of praise for "Shattered Sword" I cannot imagine anybody interested in the Carrier War in the Pacific not reading this.
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pasternakski
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by pasternakski »

It's not a question of reading it and taking from it what you can. Many have been critical of this work (I have said nothing about it), and that is all I have to say about it.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

AS A GAMER, knowing what I know, before the Essex-class and escorts are bristling with 40mm bofors/proximity range ammo, I take the IJN in a game.

I do so because of the superior range of it's scout, strike and fighter a/c.

My strategy is based on getting in the first hack, hopefully before the U.S. launches a strike of its own.

After large numbers of Essex are deployed, this part of the war belongs to the U.S.

And there is no greater of confluence of incompetence and bad-luck to be found than the Pearl Harbor debacle.

Now, there's an if...

What if 150-200 U.S. fighters had been cruising at 10,000ft when the Japanese strike force arrived?

The IJN would still have inflicted major losses on the anchored fleet, but they would have likely suffered MASSIVE losses among their strike force, putting them at a disadvantage in coming operations.

And what if the U.S. had discovered the intended raid early enough for the fleet to have sortied? LOL, they'd probably all have been sunk, a la the Repulse and Prince of Wales!!!

Luck played a big role in WW2, certainly.

That torpedo that disabled the Bismark is proof enough of that, but intel won the battle of Midway.

It could have gone the other way, but the U.S. would have had to botch the job far more completely than anything else that they had done to date, IMHO.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)
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NimitsTexan
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by NimitsTexan »

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

It's not a question of reading it and taking from it what you can. Many have been critical of this work (I have said nothing anbout it), and that is all I have to say about it.

Just out of curiosity, could you enlighten me as to some of the problems others are having with "Shatterd Sword"? Other than the fact they (and modern Japanese) were a little too hard on Fuchida, nothing in the book struck my as symptomatic of poor research or an over-enthusiasm to prove a certain point. [On a side note, I am somewhat suspicious that the atitudes of modern Japanese historians towards Fuchida may be influenced by the latter's acceptance of Christianity, a religion still not particularly popular in that country].
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pasternakski
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: NimitsTexan
Just out of curiosity, could you enlighten me as to some of the problems others are having with "Shatterd Sword"?
I suggest you search the forums and find their posts, then PM them if you want to discuss what they had to say.

Their words are their words, not mine. Besides, almost every time I post anything in response to someone on these forums, it turns into an excuse for fragging my @$$, and next thing you know everybody starts talking about what a flaming jerk I am.

Further, I don't dare come to my own defense, because the moderators seem more than willing to jump on the "kill the guy with the Polish-sounding nick" bandwagon themselves.

So, I'd just as soon not start. Probably shouldn't have said anything about it in the first place, but I thought maybe you would be interested in pursuing some intelligent, informative, friendly dialogue with those whose views contrast with your own.

With that, I'm outta this thread.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: Carriers when?

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

I ordered Shattered Sword from Amazon. It sounds interesting and it'll be right at home in my little collection of volumes on the subject.

When I was a kid, right at the outset of my wargaming fit, I checked out a copy of Incredible Victory from my middle-school's library. I took the book with me on a four-hundred-mile excursion to my first NFL game. As I recall, the adults in the car were surprised that a barely-pubescent teen could be so TOTALLY absorbed on the verge of his first COWBOY'S game. The book was just that good, the loss of the Yorktown, notwithstanding.

A couple of months later, Santa brought me a copy of Avalon Hill's Midway game. IIRC, it was my fifth, following Jutland, Afrika Korps, Battle of the Bulge and 1914. I remember being sorta disappointed that the game didn't differentiate between plane types. Vals and SBDs were just "dive-bombers." I guess that I was a "grog" before being a "grog" was considered cool![;)]

Forgive me the nostalgia,

PoE (aka ivanmoe)
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