Bloody Pacific: Pomphat (Allied) vs Amiral Laurent (Japan)

Post descriptions of your brilliant successes and unfortunate demises.

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Apollo11
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RE: 11 July 1943: third CV battle of the war, third Japanese victory

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

11 July 1943

Northern Pacific

And so this day of CV battle ended with a Japanese costly but real success:
_ Allied losses were 421 aircraft (in this battle, 433 overall for the day), including 415 A2A, 5 AA and 1 ops. Lost were 201 F4F-4, 71 TBF, 53 SBD, 28 Wildcat V, 23 Barracuda, 18 F6F, 16 TBM, 7 Kingfisher, 2 Mariner, 1 Seagull and 1 Walrus. The CV Lexington II and CVL Cowpens were heavily damaged, while the CV Essex, Illustrious and Yorktown II and the CVL Princeton were maybe hit seriously enough to be out of the battle and probably out of the war for some months, and the CVL Monterey and Indomitable were hit but remained operational. At least five other Allied CV were still intact: the CV Hornet and Enterprise II, an unidentified British CV (the Victorious?) and the CVL Independence and Belleau Woord. To that may be added at least two CVE, the Chenango and Suwanee.
_ Japanese losses were 345 aircraft (again in this battle, excluding losses suffered during LBA strikes off PJ described below, 353 overall for the day), including 235 A2A, 106 AA and 4 ops. Lost were 130 A6M3a, 95 Val, 80 Kate, 17 A6M5, 7 Jill, 5 Pete, 4 Judy, 2 Jake, 2 Dave, 1 Betty, 1 Dinah II and 1 Glen. No Japanese CV was hit.

Banzai!!!

Great success - congratulations!



IMHO your decision not to persue with CVs is prudent one and, hopefully, you can sink damaged and fleeing enemy CVs with combination of short range air operation and surface fleet!

I am sure that the emperor will, most certainly, be pleased because Japanese CVs are still intact and enemy CVs sufferend yet another defeat (not as final as before but this is year 1943 after all)... he will now (again) must pause for at least few months before another try...


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RE: 11 July 1943: third CV battle of the war, third Japanese victory

Post by 06 Maestro »

Sake for everyone!

I thougt this was going to be "it" for the Japanese Empire-the great turning point for the Allies.

Splendid job, Admiral.
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RE: 11 July 1943: third CV battle of the war, third Japanese victory

Post by Miller »

Hi Admiral. Well done. However, why not pursue his damaged CV's?

You will never have a better chance......he can only have a handfull of F4Fs left to defend his fleet. Bare in mind also this will be the last time you can catch him before the F6F comes online in big numbers......yes his LBA will be a threat but only to your smaller carriers (500lb bombs usually bounce off the bigger CV's).

I say go for it[;)]

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RE: 11 July 1943: third CV battle of the war, third Japanese victory

Post by String »

Ouch.. 108 aircraft lost to flak..
Surface combat TF fanboy
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RE: 11 July 1943: third CV battle of the war, third Japanese victory

Post by WhoCares »

Great success for Japan, I'd say!
 
Out of couriosity, is it possible to transfer aircraft off an overloaded CV to a land airbase? If not, I'd say you should have pursued as some of his operational CVs might have been shut down because of this.
But anyway, I can't imagine the tension of the players seeing bad weather grounding most planes two days in a row...
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RE: 11 July 1943: third CV battle of the war, third Japanese victory

Post by AmiralLaurent »

ORIGINAL: Miller

Hi Admiral. Well done. However, why not pursue his damaged CV's?

You will never have a better chance......he can only have a handfull of F4Fs left to defend his fleet. Bare in mind also this will be the last time you can catch him before the F6F comes online in big numbers......yes his LBA will be a threat but only to your smaller carriers (500lb bombs usually bounce off the bigger CV's).

I say go for it[;)]

Miller, I don't know if you're used to play in 1943 or later but by this date Allied bombers will drop 1000 or 2000lb on my ships and no CV armor will be able to resist that.
A critical factor in CV success is the crew fatigue, and a good repartition of escort and CAP for factor. Too much CAP and your attack aircraft will get slaugthered, too much escort and your CV will be hit. So after a day of battle like that and with about one hundred heavy bombers and 60 P-38 in Attu & Kiska, I won't take the risk.
By the way, I have already won battles like that where I lost 50% of IJN airmen. It will take months for me to rebuild my air units, while most Allied air units will be back to strength and experience the day they will reach an Allied base.
My view of the situation is that my attack crews will be able to only sink easy targets tomorrow, and so staying more west will reduce their potential targets to the most damaged CV. Sinking 2 CV will already be a great achievement. I also don't trust anymore the reaction move of my CV and so have a security margin to stay out of range of Attu LBA.
By the way, keeping my CV force intact is for me more important than sinking some more CV. All CV I will be able to attack will be seriously damaged and so out of the war for some months, and the next months are the period I am the most interested in. Having local superiority will allow me to crush the Allied force in PJ, and that will do more to delay the Allied advance than the loss of some CV.

By the way F6F have not impressed me so far, probably because my Zero pilots were less tired and far more experienced than the Hellcat pilots.

This battle will allow the IJN to have a superiority or at least parity in CV strength until the end of 1943. Then the KB will become a "fleet in being", whose role will be to force each Allied invasion to be covered by a powerful CV force, so delaying its advance.

ORIGINAL: String

Ouch.. 108 aircraft lost to flak..

Hi, String, nice to see you again in WITP-world... Yes Allied AA is terrible, about 50% of the attack aircraft that reached Allied ships were shot down by Allied gunners.

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

Out of couriosity, is it possible to transfer aircraft off an overloaded CV to a land airbase? If not, I'd say you should have pursued as some of his operational CVs might have been shut down because of this.
But anyway, I can't imagine the tension of the players seeing bad weather grounding most planes two days in a row...

The game is supposed not to overload CV with units fragments. By the way with such AC losses I don't think any Alleid CV was overloaded this evening. But anyway it is possible to transfer AC from an overloaded AC (up to 100% overloading).

As for the tension, yes it was great... and it is still great with me unable to play due to no power for my PC and two third of the Empire's BB and all of his CV engaged in operations. I will try again to find a charger tomorrow and hope I will be able to find one.

Thanks to all for support and interest

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RE: 11 July 1943: third CV battle of the war, third Japanese victory

Post by Miller »

I bow to your much greater experience Admiral. I am only in my second game and yet to get beyond 42 so forgive my ignorance.[;)] Seems like I would get all of the KB sunk before 43[:D]
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RE: 11 July 1943: third CV battle of the war, third Japanese victory

Post by denisonh »

Congratulations on your victory Laurent.

I agree that the Allies trying too much before converting from the F4F-4 to more useful aircraft against an expereinced Jap force may be more costly than necessary. Noetheless, well played.

I just need to make sure I don't make the same mistake about "rushing it" in our game if we make it to 43...........
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12 July 1943: four Allied CVs sunk !!!!

Post by AmiralLaurent »

[:)] [:D] [;)] [8D] [:'(]

12 July 1943

Northern Pacific

During the night, both BB TF sent east of Paramushiro Jima engaged several Allied CV but with widely different results.

The northern BB TF (BB Hiei, Haruna and Kirishima, CA Maya and Ashigara, 6 DD) engaged 180 miles east of Paramushiro Jima two coherent Allied CV TF, slightly damaged CV being still heavily escorted by BB, cruisers and DD. It first engaged a TF composed of the CV Indomitable, the CVL Independence, the BB Indiana and Massachusetts, 2 CLAA, 1 CL and 6 DD. Two Japanese BB opened fire on the Independence but missed her. The battle was then fought at 8000 and 10000 yards between the Allied escort and the Japanese ships, and the first won and repulsed the attack. Three destroyers, the IJN Asashio and Naganami and the USS Anthony, were seriously damaged by a torpedo hit each, three other destroyers of each side were damaged by shells while the BB Indiana was the only capital ship to suffer any real damage, when a 14in shell hit her and penetrated her armor, but was not seriously damaged.
The same Japanese TF then engaged another CV TF, the lightly damaged CV Yorktown (after a torpedo and 3 bomb hits reported yesterday) being escorted by the BB North Carolina, 3 CLAA, 1 CL and 5 DD. The fight was fought quickly with only one pass at 9000 yards before the Allied ships escaped. The Yorktown was hit by a 6in shell that bounced on her armor. The Allied escorts return fire hit the BB Kirishima, destroying her radar, and 4 DD, setting two on fire.
These two battles showed very well that Allied crews were now able to win night naval battles, and that US DD were now better than Japanese ones. Some of the IJN DD fighting this battle had 3.9in guns that were unable to penetrate the belt armor of US DD. A reorganization of the Japanese DD will be made in the near future but their main role for now will be ASW and AA escort rather than surface warships.

The southern BB TF (BB Musashi and Yamato, CA Aoba and Chikuma, 6 DD) cruised 60 miles more south and was far more lucky as it caught at sea a gaggle of damaged ships limping west and sank all of them. The first to be seen was the AP Sumter, that was dispatched in some minutes by the secondary artillery of the Yamato, while the other Japanese ships continued westwards and engaged two other cripples, the AK Indus and the DE Gilmore. The first was sunk by the Musashi and the Aoba while the DE was torpedoed by a DD and sank.
And then the TF found its dream target, the damaged CVL Cowpens with an escort DD. The latter, the USS Eaton, bravely attacked and launched torpedoes on the Musashi but the BB dodged them and replied with 18in shells. The Eaton was also gunned by both CA and two DD and quickly sank. And then both Japanese BB pounded the Cowpens with 18 and 6 in shells and sank her. Japanese radars detected two other big blips in the area and both were engaged.
The first was another damaged CVL, the Monterey, escorted by the DD Pringle. The destroyer fought bravely to try to save the carrier but was finally sunk by the concentrated fire of the Japanese ships that then surrounded the CVL and sank her with shells and torpedoes (both BB, both CA and 2 DD hit her).
The second was the CV HMS Illustrious, also badly damaged the day before, with the DD USS DeHaven as her only escort. The battle opened with a 8in hit on the CV by the Aoba. The destroyer charged the attackers and managed to hit a DD once before being sunk by the concentrated fire of 3 Japanese DD with shells and torpedoes. The main Japanese warships were at the same time pounding the Illustrious and hit her with two torpedoes, 3 18in shells and 4 8in shells, but the ship still remained afloat while the Japanese TF turned west as dawn was arriving. The British crew was so able to evacuate the wreck in good order but she sank at dawn.

To end an awful night for the Allied CV fleet and a good one for the Imperial Navy, 60 miles more east than this slaughter, another heavily damaged CV, the Lexington II was sailing under escort by one DD, the USS Beale, when she was attacked by the SS I-181 and critically hit by 2 torpedoes. The Beale found the attacker and heavily damaged her with two direct hits and 6 near-misses.

More west, the Japanese CV sailed to their new patrol spot, 60 miles SE of PJ. The CA Chokai had been ordered to sweep these waters first and found two TF of damaged ships in the area when she arrived. First she found 2 LST and the AP President Garfield sailing together. She sank the AP and hit twice an already heavily damaged LST. Then she surprised the AP Warren and scored 10 hits on her but didn’t manage to sink her. Japanese sailors reported that troops were seen above the ship (133 casualties reported in the combat report). This AP sank before dawn.

After dawn, there was some more action. 240 miles west of Attu, the I-39 saw 3 Allied cruisers but was chased by the seven DD of the escort and heavily damaged by one direct hit and 9 near-misses scored by the USS Stanly. More SW the badly damaged Lexington II managed to sail a little east during the morning but was tracked by the SS I-25 that was chased by the DD Beale before she could attack. Anyway the Lexington sank during the day. Her loss brought the body count of the day for the Allied CV fleet to 2 CV and 2 CVL with 31 aircraft aboard (17 F4F-4, 6 TBM, 4 SBD, 2 TBF, 1 Barracuda and 1 Wildcat V).

Bad weather still covered most of the area. The Japanese CV were under a new storm SE of PJ and reacted east (you can forget my theory that they won’t react if they follow a transport TF rather than a surface TF, there is apparently nothing you can do now to stop CV TF reacting…) but remained under clouds. An Allied CV TF also reacted towards the Japanese CV.

Kido Butai attack aircraft were unable to fly but Zeroes spread out around their ships and covered all Japanese TF in the area. An Allied CV TF sent a raid against the Japanese Northern BB TF but it get badly split. 26 SBD and 4 TBF lost their escort but continued and saw a Japanese TF 120 miles ESE of PJ but were then bounced by 34 A6M3a that shot down all four Avenger and 8 Dauntlesses without loss. All surviving Allied crews turned back and escaped in clouds. 60 miles more east the escort of this raid (17 F4F-4) only found 3 TBF to escort on an attack on the badly damaged DD Naganami, sailing back alone after the battle of the night. Well, she was not totally alone as 29 A6M3a were in the area and engaged the Allied airmen, shooting down 8 Wildcats and a TBF without loss. The two remaining Allied bombers then attacked the DD but missed and one was shot down by AA.
On the Japanese side the only raid sent in the morning was a small attack by 3 Betties from Toyohara against an Allied CV TF 240 miles east of PJ. Only 4 F4F-4 of VF-8 flew CAP over this area but that was enough. They shot down one Betty and the other turned back.

Storms continued in the afternoon and several attacks were cancelled by it. 12 Betties and 3 Nells were sent from Toyohara to attack the same CV TF as some hours before but all were scattered in bad weather and turned back. Six Attu-based B-17E sent to attack the Yamato&Musashi TF also didn’t find them due to clouds and turned back.
But there were enough holes in the clouds to see some action. 3 Barracuda escorted by 3 Wildcat searched the damaged DD attacked in the morning (the Naganami) 180 miles ESE of PJ, evaded 20 A6M3a patrolling in the area (along with 16 F4F-4) and attacked the ship but missed and lost a Barracuda to AA fire.
Another damaged DD, the Asashio, was in the area and was attacked by 3 PB4Y that hit her once. He radioed for help and the next wave of attackers, 16 B-24D of the 380th BG, was met by 48 A6M3a that shot down 6 bombers but lost 3 of their number to AA fire. The remaining bombers scored 6 hits on the drifting DD and sank her.
This afternoon, the KB CV sailed out of the storm but launched no attack. They were themselves the target of 12 unescorted SBD but the CAP of 48 A6M3a and 32 A6M5 quickly dispatched them. 5 Dauntlesses were shot down, the 7 remaining turned back.
Once again the only Japanese raid to find a target was flown from Toyohara. 3 Nells attacked the damaged LST-28 60 miles east of PJ and sank her with a torpedo. A Nell hit by AA fire during the attack ditched on the way home.

During the day, KB fighter pilots flew from TF to TF in bad weather and paid a high cost. To the 3 combat losses listed above should be added 5 other due to accidents and bad weather. They shot down 4 Allied aircraft on naval search (a PB4Y, a SBD, a TBF and a Walrus). Allied fighters doing the same job shot down during the day two floatplanes (a Jake and a Glen) and lost a P-38G flying LRCAP from an Aleutian base.

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On Paramushiro Jima, AA fire shot down a PBM Mariner flying recon during the day, and Japanese artillery continued to pound Allied troops, hitting 10 men. The evening report in PJ reported damage of 67/96/90 (airbase/runways/port), 184 available engineer squads and 477 AV while the Allied forces were reported as 66143 men, 608 guns and 159 vehicles (AV 1093). Compared to the figures of the day before, you can see that the cratered runways (99 yesterday, 96% today) didn’t stop the Japanese transport AC to bring more troops here, but the Allied troops also saw their number and AV increase, and so probably had enough supplies for a long battle.

The Kido Butai will gather tomorrow west of PJ. Both BB TF will gather off Onnekita Jima (sp? The dot west of PJ) with the cruiser TF coming from Toyohara (former escorts of the late Fuso and of the Mutsu) and the solitary CA Chokai. Then they will be reorganized and they will pound the Allied beachhead on PJ, the numerous Seabees unit here should provide good targets for a “nuke” pounding. An Allied submarine was seen today off PJ and the KB airmen will chase her tomorrow. The CV will sail 120 miles W of PJ and the fighters (219, including 218 serviceable) will continue to fly 90% CAP except two units that will LRCAP the surface TF, while the attack aircraft (80(76) DB and 78(73) TB) will be ready to attack Allied ships, but on a reduced scale as Vals will fly 40% naval search to chase the Allied submarine. The 80 land-based bombers in Toyohara (63 serviceable) kept the same orders, naval attack at range 15 with 20% search.

The four Japanese naval units badly hit today may all survive. They were the SS I-181 (damage 64/84/0), the DD Naganami (52/52/14), the SS I-39 (50/30/0) and the DD Wakazuki (37/30/9). All were ordered to sail to Etorofu Jima, a size 3 port.
This base saw today the arrival of 9 Emilies from Shikka but will also be the base of two AR in some days. The convoy of 4 AR that left Osaka some days ago reached Ominato today and while two AR were disbanded here, the two other sailed eastwards with their escort of CLs and DDs. By the way their escort were also asked to search for submarines east of Ominato as several damaged ships will sail to this base in the next days.

Central Pacific

Japanese engineers expanded the airfield of Saipan to size 4. The challenge now will be that this airfield will never be used against Japan.

New Guinea-New Britain- Solomon Islands

In the morning 7 PB4Y from PM attacked Kavieng and scored 2 hits on the runways. Rabaul was attacked in the afternoon by 23 B-25J from Gili Gili that disabled 39 men and 1 gun and scored 5 hits on the airbase, 5 on supplies and 17 on the runways.

Allied engineers expanded the port of Gili Gili to size 3.

Timor-DEI-Australia

In the afternoon, Lautem was bombed by 26 B-24D from Darwin escorted by 15 P-40N that scored 1 hit on supplies and 2 on the runway, and did 7 casualties. A P-40N was lost in an accident.

The evening report for this area gave the airfield status as: Maumere 39/0 (system/runway), Dili 6/0, Lautem 49/10/11, other bases undamaged. The garrison of Koepang had started again to build fortifications (level 6, 5%).

SRA

The ASW group sent from Manila chased the American submarine Sunfish NW of Vigan in the evening but she escaped undamaged.

A convoy was ordered to load 112k oil in Palembang and sail to Singapore to join AK carrying resources. Another tanker convoy had arrived at Brunei two days ago and split. A part will load 45k oil in Miri, the other 27k oil in Brunei and then the convoy will gather in Miri before sailing to Japan.

Burma

There was only one Allied raid on this front: 23 Lysander I from Kohima escorted by 7 Spitfire Vb attacked the 12th NLF SW of their base and hit 45 men.

Japanese aircraft still reported the Allied convoy off Chandpur but more south the surface raiding force sailing to attack it (2 CA, 1 CL and 3 DD) was also seen by an Allied aircraft 180 miles NW of Rangoon. The commander of the TF had orders to turn back in such a case and sent a floatplane on recon to the target, where it identified the 40th Chinese Corps. The TF was not attacked by Allied aircraft during the day but one A6M3a and one Oscar II from Rangoon were lost in bad weather while LRCAPing it. The surface TF received orders to sail to Rangoon to refuel, and in the hope of drawing some Allied bombers on naval attack in the jaws of the heavy CAP here.

The evening report gave the airfield status as: Mandalay 40/18 (system/runway), other bases undamaged.

China

The attack of the troops of the Southern China Army 120 miles east of Kweiyang (5.33 Div, 1 Tk Rgt, 2 ART, 2 HQ) continued, this time with air support from Wuhan. 35 Oscar II, 27 A6M3a, 24 Ki-21 and 22 Ki-49 bombed a Chinese Corps and hit 46 men. The 7 Chinese units facing them (5 Corps, 2 HQ) again held their ground thanks to field fortifications despite a 2 to 1 ratio. Japanese losses were 1081 men, 20 guns and 4 tanks, while the Chinese lost 1742 killed and wounded and 24 guns. The attack was then stopped to leave Japanese units rest. Also 5 Chinese units were now east of the battlefield, and it was hoped more units will come that way. As soon as more will move in this direction, the Japanese troops besieging Changsha will attack.

In Canton port, a convoy loaded the HQ of the 4th Air Division and a small IJA BF and will carry both to Toyohara, Sakhalin Island.

Japan

Two convoys were created today, one to carry 21k supplies from Takamatsu to Canton, China, to support the Japanese offensive and repair Wuchow resources, and the other to carry 42k supplies from Osaka to Toyohara, the new main airfield in Sakhalin Island and one of the main bases on the new Northern front.

Both the Chitose and the Chiyoda will be released in some days when their conversion from CS to CVL will be done. After the CV battle of these last days, there was no more hurry for them (as they were late anyway) and they will be completed at normal rate (and released in 6 days). The CV Taiho was again accelerated to use the extra capacity so released.
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RE: 12 July 1943: four Allied CVs sunk !!!!

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

Banzai!!!

Congratulations (again) on yet another victory for brave Japanese soldiers!!!


BTW, alltogether what are total Allied CV/CVL/CVE loses (sunk and damaged) for whole operation up to date?


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RE: 12 July 1943: four Allied CVs sunk !!!!

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

I tried to do some math here... [8D]


1st Round:

Seriously damaged:
CV Lexington II
CVL Cowpens

Damaged:
CV Essex
CV Yorktown II
CV Illustrious
CV Indomitable
CVL Princeton
CVL Monterey

Undamaged:
CV Hornet
CV Enterprise II
CV Victorious (?)
CVL Independence
CVL Belleau Woord
CVE Chenango
CVE Suwanee.


2nd Round:

Sunk:
CV Lexington II
CV Illustrious
CVL Cowpens
CVL Monterey


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RE: 12 July 1943: four Allied CVs sunk !!!!

Post by Fishbed »

Congratulations admiral, a really intense and formidable reading [:)]
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RE: 12 July 1943: four Allied CVs sunk !!!!

Post by AmiralLaurent »

Here is my math about the Allied CV strength and fate:


Total (identified) Allied CV force:

5 fleet US CV (each with 90 AC): Enterprise II, Essex, Hornet, Lexington II, Yorktown II
3 HMS CV: Illustrious, Indomitable, Victorious (?)
5 US CVL: Belleau Woord, Cowpens, Independence, Monterey, Princeton
3 CVE : Chenango, Sangamon, Suwanee

Preliminary action (mines and LBA against US CV while KB was soaked in)

Damaged: Monterey, Sangamon
Undamaged: Enterprise II, Essex, Hornet, Lexington II, Yorktown II, Illustrious, Indomitable, Victorious (?), Belleau Woord, Cowpens, Independence, Princeton, Chenango, Suwanee

Carrier battle results

Seriously damaged: Cowpens, Illustrious, Lexington II
Damaged: Essex, Monterey, Princeton, Yorktown II (and still Sangamon)
Undamaged: Enterprise II, Hornet, Indomitable (only a starch on her paint), Victorious (?), Belleau Woord, Independence, Chenango, Suwanee

Chase of the cripples by BB and submarines

Sunk: Cowpens, Illustrious, Lexington II, Monterey

Ships needing repairs: Essex, Princeton, Sangamon, Yorktown II

Still operational:
2 fleet US CV : Enterprise II, Hornet
2 HMS CV: Indomitable, Victorious (?),
2 US CVL: Belleau Woord, Independence
2 CVE: Chenango, Suwanee

Total remaining capacity: 380-400 AC (to be compared to the 375 AC remaining aboard the KB after the battle)
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RE: 12 July 1943: four Allied CVs sunk !!!!

Post by Ron Saueracker »

I'm still very disappointed that after knowing how inaccurate the entire air model is, especially the CAP, nothing has been released to rectify it in over three years. I sure hope Joe and the boys have something out soon.

Qite the battle though, even if it was bogus![:)]
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RE: 12 July 1943: four Allied CVs sunk !!!!

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Here is my math about the Allied CV strength and fate:


Total (identified) Allied CV force:

5 fleet US CV (each with 90 AC): Enterprise II, Essex, Hornet, Lexington II, Yorktown II
3 HMS CV: Illustrious, Indomitable, Victorious (?)
5 US CVL: Belleau Woord, Cowpens, Independence, Monterey, Princeton
3 CVE : Chenango, Sangamon, Suwanee

Preliminary action (mines and LBA against US CV while KB was soaked in)

Damaged: Monterey, Sangamon
Undamaged: Enterprise II, Essex, Hornet, Lexington II, Yorktown II, Illustrious, Indomitable, Victorious (?), Belleau Woord, Cowpens, Independence, Princeton, Chenango, Suwanee

Carrier battle results

Seriously damaged: Cowpens, Illustrious, Lexington II
Damaged: Essex, Monterey, Princeton, Yorktown II (and still Sangamon)
Undamaged: Enterprise II, Hornet, Indomitable (only a starch on her paint), Victorious (?), Belleau Woord, Independence, Chenango, Suwanee

Chase of the cripples by BB and submarines

Sunk: Cowpens, Illustrious, Lexington II, Monterey

Ships needing repairs: Essex, Princeton, Sangamon, Yorktown II

Still operational:
2 fleet US CV : Enterprise II, Hornet
2 HMS CV: Indomitable, Victorious (?),
2 US CVL: Belleau Woord, Independence
2 CVE: Chenango, Suwanee

Total remaining capacity: 380-400 AC (to be compared to the 375 AC remaining aboard the KB after the battle)

Thanks!

How much time do you estimate your air groups on KB need to recover to their full strength?


BTW, will you try to kill landed enemy forces in coming days now that your opponenet was forced to flee with his remaining carriers?


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RE: 12 July 1943: four Allied CVs sunk !!!!

Post by Emilio »

Hi,

Quite impressive.

If I'm not making mistakes these are the allied CV/CVL losses from the start of the war:

1st Aircraft Carrier Battle (Christmas Island). February 1942.

CV Lexington
CV Enterprise
CV Yorktown

2nd Aircraft Carrier Battle (Hawaii). July-August 1942.

CV Saratoga
CV Wasp
CV Formidable

3rd Aircraft Carrier Battle (Paramushiro Jima). July 1943.

CV Lexington II
CV Illustrious
CVL Cowpens
CVL Monterey

So 5 big US carriers are sunk (poor Lady Lex), a british carrier and 2 ligth US carriers also for no losses in the japanese side (I'm not counting CVEs here).

It seems to me that the allied player has gone to the offensive to early, either in Hawaii and in Paramushiro Jima. I think that with a few months delay, that battles, if not won by the allies had cause severe damage to the KB.

It seems that you will have the initiative in 1943. Let's wait for a 4th battle in 1944, with a stronger US Navy.
Emilio
AmiralLaurent
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13 July 1943: well-earned pause

Post by AmiralLaurent »

Ron, I fully agree with you that WITP A2A model is totally wrong for big battles, but I was surprised to not see total annihilation of any side in the above CV battles, maybe because both sides had comparable experience, in all cases a part of the bombers get trough. OK, the fighter losses are ridiculous, the number on CAP are ridiculous too. But there is no simple solution, if you reduce the CAP, or to be more precise if you do not allow any more the CAP to intercept an infinite number of raids, then the bombers that will be far more numerous and precise than IRL will bomb everything in sight every time. So I don't complain any more, and I play with the model we have.

Apollo, I think the KB will spend several months rebuidling air groups to full strength and updating aircraft to A6M5, Jill and Judy. Training a pilot takes me 4-6 months and most of the training units sent their pilots to KB last month and received rookies. Five new IJNAF units will arrive in some days and will be used to rebuild KB units by adding fragments to the CV units but I still will be short by about 200 experienced aircrew, I guess.
In some days the CVL Chitose and Chiyoda arrived, in 7 weeks (but it is hoped farther) the A6M5 will be available, in 11 weeks the third CV of Unryu class will be commissioned, and then KB will have a total capacity of 934 (not counting overcrowding or CVE). Late fall will see the release of the Jill and Judy. Then no more reinforcement will join the fleet before the late summer of 1944, with the Taiho and 3 other Unryu.
Until 1944, I won't use the KB for raids against convoys or Allied bases, but will keep it together to engage the (supposedly weaker) Allied CV fleet. Then the KB will become a fleet in being, that will be engaged only if the Allied CV split, or if they are away and there is a good opportunity to hit Allied convoys, or maybe an Allied base with a good kill ratio (no Corsair involved...).

Emilio, you're a real fan, are you ? Below you will find the total CV/CVL/CVE losses in the game so far. And yes, I think both Allied operations were too early, Hawai because it was just after the Suva operation but before the NZ one, and PJ because he should have waited one more month to have more Hellcats.

Image

13 July 1943

Northern Pacific

Both fleets totally broke contact and no Allied ship was seen today by any Japanese aircraft or submarine, except at least 6 submarines off Paramushiro Jima. Whether they were here to defend the beachhead or to evacuate unit cadres was only left to guess for Japanese officers. But due to the high number of submarines off the beachhead, the bombardment run planned for this evening was cancelled. All surface ships gathered off Onnekotan Jima (sp? The base east of PJ) were reorganized into two surface TF with a total of 5 BB, 6 CA, 4 CL and 14 DD and sailed NW to wait for the Allied submarines to leave the area, or be chased by Japanese aircraft, as the KB will also remain in the area at the same spot, 120 miles NW of PJ and its DB and TB will fly extensive naval and ASW patrols to chase Allied submarines.

The only action took place on the ground when Japanese guns fired on Allied troops and hit 43 men and 3 guns. The evening report in PJ reported damage of 67/76/90 (airbase/runways/port), 185 available engineer squads and 505 AV while the Allied forces were reported as 66781 men, 615 guns and 167 vehicles (AV 1113).

Two Japanese aircraft were lost in accidents due to bad weather in the area, an A6M3a from the KB and a Tina ferrying troops from Wakkanai.

Toyohara bombers received orders to rest, except the Nell Daitai that will fly 100% naval search range 21 to try to find again Allied ships and two Betty crews that will fly recon over Attu and Kiska. An Emily from Etoforu Jima will also fly recon over Amchitka Island. By the way Japanese engineers received orders to build an airfield in this island, that had so far only a seaplane base. As more aircraft will fly naval search, the five remaining Japanese submarines east and SE of PJ received orders to patrol closer to the Japanese base to escape the Allied LBA from Attu and Kiska.

In the rear area the CL Kuma reached Etoforu Jima with damage 60/63 and was ordered to continue to Ominato after refueling. The other damaged ships still sailed westwards. In Wakkanai, the BB Mutsu left the port under escort by 3 DD and an APD and will also go to Ominato.

Central Pacific

The convoy carrying the 21st Div left Kona and sailed towards Japan via a sea point south of Marcus Island to avoid sailing north of Midway and wandering into Allied CVs (I love the way the game calculates TF path).

Southern Pacific

The ML squadron that was based in Suva for the last months reached Pago-Pago and will now operate from here, but used all few fuel available on this base. So an AK convoy was ordered to load 14k fuel in Kwajalein and will bring it to this base.

New Guinea-New Britain- Solomon Islands

In the morning 8 PB4Y from PM attacked Kavieng and scored 1 hit on supplies and 3 on the runways. Rabaul was attacked in the afternoon by 27 B-25J from Gili Gili that disabled 28 men and scored 5 hits on the airbase, 2 on supplies and 19 on the runways for one operational loss. This base reported in the evening no damage but less than 6000 supplies and three 7000-ton AK received orders in Truk port to load supplies and will sail independently to Truk, Shortlands and Lunga.

Allied engineers expanded the airfield of Goodenough Island to size 2. A Betty Chutai will bombard this base tonight.

Two small transport TF left Palau each with a Const Bn aboard and will carry them to the islands of Sawatal and Woelai to build fortifications here.

The minelayer submarine I-121 left Truk to lay a defensive minefield off Kavieng.

Timor-DEI-Australia

There was no Allied raid, but a PBM Mariner was shot down by AA fire during a recon flight over Kendari.

The evening report for this area gave the airfield status as: Maumere 33/0 (system/runway), Lautem 45/0/11, other bases undamaged. The garrison of Koepang continued to build fortifications (level 6, 16%). A convoy left Palau today for Kendari with the 23rd Eng Rgt aboard coming from the Pacific. This unit will be then flown to Timor by transport aircraft and will build fortifications here.

SRA

The CA Suzuya and her patchwork escort reached Singapore and were disbanded here. The CA went to the repair shipyard to be upgraded.

A big AK convoy left Palembang for Singapore with all resources of the first base (28k) and will load 90k more in Singapore before sailing to Japan. The big TK convoy (capacity 112) ordered to load oil yesterday in Palembang before sailing to Singapore where it will join the AK convoy sailed empty today and was recalled to Palembang.

Burma

Allied air activity raised again to its normal level. Myitkyina was attacked by 6 B-25J from Ledo escorted by 22 P-40E and reported 9 casualties, 1 hit on supplies and 11 on the runways, while in the afternoon 50 B-25C flying from Dacca (probably the air units based in Chanpdur flew back here to avoid a naval bombardment) and escorted by 14 P-40N attacked Mandalay, doing 30 casualties and scoring 4 hits on the airbase, 4 on supplies and 11 on the runways. Four units of the garrison (33rd and 104th Div, 21st and 23rd Mixed Bde) were bombed by 48 Liberator VI, 27 B-24D, 23 Vengeance I, 18 Beaufighter VIC and 16 B-17E from Imphal, Dacca and Ledo escorted by 35 P-40N and 21 P-40E and lost 150 men and 5 guns. In the jungle more west, the 12th NLF was attacked and missed again by 56 Hurricane II from Imphal escorted by 6 Spitfire Vb SE of this base. Allied losses during the day were 1 B-24D, 1 B-25C and 1 Liberator VI shot down by AA fire, and one B-17E lost in an accident.

As guessed the Allied convoy reported yesterday off Chanpur moved during the night and was reported after dawn at Diamond Harbor. The Japanese surface TF refuelled in Rangoon.

The evening report gave the airfield status as: Mandalay 51/35 (system/runway), other bases undamaged. In Myitkyina Japanese engineers began again to rebuild fortifications (level 8, 5%).

China

Chinese troops 120 miles east of Kweiyang were attacked by 34 Oscar II, 27 A6M3a, 25 Ki-49 and 22 Ki-21 from Wuhan and by 10 Oscar II from Nanchang and lost 128 men. They were then bombed by Japanese guns and lost 309 more casualties and 3 guns. East of this front, the number of Chinese units increased from 5 to 11, meaning that the reserve troops that were on the crossroads NW of Changsha moved east to reinforce this area. The troops of the Southern China Army will launch tomorrow a shock attack to break once for good the Chinese line before the reinforcements arrived.

And as soon as these Chinese reinforcements will arrive close to these Japanese troops, the 11th Japanese Army will attack in Changsha. Today the 50th Chinese Corps was bombed NW of this town by 23 Ki-51 from Wuhan and lost 71 men. This unit was the only remaining in the area to threaten the Japanese supply line from Wuhan to Changsha and the 11th Bde holding this road was divided and half of it will go to Changsha to join the attack against the city.

More north a regiment of the 27th Div that was holding some weeks ago a part of the Sian-Chungking road that was vacated recently by Japanese forces redeploying (withdrawing should be more precise but it is not a word that Japanese officers use) arrived in Homan and relieved the two small base forces holding the town of their garrison duties. Both BF will go to the coast, one to support aircraft flying ASW in Wenchow, the other to follow the coastal road to go to Southern China.
The 2nd Eng Rgt coming from Northern China arrived in Hengchow and will take this coastal road to go to Southern China too.

Japan

Five South Sea Detachments were formed in Tokyo today. Their original mission was to go to the Pacific and New Guinea and to hold secondary base (with their 99 AV) but due to the situation in the Kuriles their orders were modified and they received orders to prepare for a deployment to Paramushiro Jima.
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RE: 13 July 1943: well-earned pause

Post by Zond »

AmiralLaurent, congratulations on your victory in "Battle Of Northern Seas". Great AAR, keep up the good work. It is a pleasure to read it!
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14 July 1943: early return of the Allied fleet

Post by AmiralLaurent »

14 July 1943

Northern Pacific

60 miles NW of Onnekotan Jima, the base east of PJ, the American submarine Capelin tried twice to attack the KB (2 CV and 2 BB TF). Before dawn he saw a BB and a CA but was seen and chased by the 6 DD escorting this TF even if she escaped undamaged the depth charges dropped by one. In the morning she closed again and this time launched torpedoes on the CV Junyo, but missed. Five DD then searched her and two dropped DCs, the Koroshio scoring a direct hit and a near-miss that damaged the submarine. By the way the heavy ASW and naval patrols from KB airmen during the day only showed 3 Allied submarines in the area and none were attacked.

The real surprise of the day was in the morning, when the SS I-25 patrolling 240 miles east of PJ reported several cruisers before trying to engage them. Unable to close on the heavy warships she finally attacked a DD but missed. Four DD then chased her and the USS Conway and O’Bannon badly damaged her (38/64/0) with 2 hits and 8 near-misses with Mk 9 depth charges. Japanese naval search patrols then closed to this area and reported 6 Allied TFs: an AP convoy, 3 surface TF (with at least one BB) and 2 CV TF (with 3 and 2 CV)! It was not thought possible for Allied CV to return to this area so fast.

By the way, Japanese airmen also flew recon over Amchitka, Attu and Kiska. Nothing was seen off the 1st, 6 BB off the 2nd and 3 CV off the later, where the usual land-based CAP was reinforced by 29 F4F-4. An AP was seen in Kiska port while 13 ships were counted in Attu port.

After missing much of the action of the next days, Attu heavy bombers finally flew today. In the morning 34 B-17E were sent to bomb Japanese troops in PJ but the base detected them to some distance and asked cover from the KB that sent 42 A6M3a and 8 A6M5 to intercept the raid. The air battle was costly to both sides: 10 B-17E and 6 A6M3a were shot down, and 2 B-17E, 2 A6M3a and 1 A6M5 badly damaged crashed later. The best active Japanese ace, PO2 Fujita P of EII-1 Daitai, shot down one of these bombers to bring his score to 27. The bombers attacked one of the 3 Naval Guard Unit of the garrison and hit 54 men and 1 gun but met heavy AA fire that shot down 3 of them.

During the morning, the KB CAP shot down a PB4Y searching her NW of Onnekotan Jima. In the afternoon 5 other PB4Y from Attu tried to attack it but met a CAP of 128 A6M3a and 26 A6M5 and all were shot down against the loss of an A6M3a to return fire. Two A6M3a of the KB were also lost during the day in accidents, reducing its complement to 206 fighters (194 serviceable), 80 DB (80) and 78 TB (77).

On the ground on PJ Japanese guns fired on Allied troops without success, and then Allied troops launched another deliberate attack and managed to take a fortified hill dominating their beachhead (engineers reduced forts from level 9 to 8). The attack failed elsewhere at 0 to 1 (1079 Allied AV vs 533, adjusted to 1134 vs 2968). Japanese lost 499 men and 10 guns, Allied 840 men and 16 guns.

The evening report in PJ reported damage of 67/49/90 (airbase/runways/port), 186 available engineer squads and 500 AV while the Allied forces were reported before their attack as 67521 men, 620 guns and 170 vehicles (AV 1140). Two Tina ferrying troops from Wakkanai were lost in crashes today. Japanese troops were ordered to stop artillery fire on Allied troops.

The KB was not in a good state to engage a new CV battle and with no idea of what the Allied fleet will do it was decided to not send the BB TF to PJ as it was planned. All Japanese TF were ordered to sail together to Toyohara to rearm ammunition and refill in part the air groups.

In Toyohara 27 more Betties and 12 Oscar II arrived from Japan. Bombers based here were ordered to continue to fly naval search and recon, but most of them (64 Betties and 20 Nells) will try to fly night naval attack.

Two AR and their CL and DD escort reached Etoforu Jima but given to the new Allied advance towards PJ only one AR was disbanded there, the other was ordered to Toyohara with the full escort. Damaged ships still sailed westwards, the state of two submarines and the CL Kuma being considered dangerous.

The five new South Seas Detachments in Tokyo received orders to board trains to go to Ominato. The 1st and 2nd received orders to prepare for Onnekotan and Etorofu Jima rather than PJ as they were ordered the day before.

Image

New Guinea-New Britain- Solomon Islands

Four Betty from Truk bombarded the airfield of Goodenough Island during the night but missed. During the day, a Emily flying recon over this island was shot down by one of the 9 Kittyhawk I of 118 Sqn RCAF flying CAP over the base.

In the afternoon Rabaul was attacked by 15 B-25J from Gili Gili that disabled 18 men and 2 guns and scored 1 hit on the airbase, 1 on supplies and 5 on the runways. This base reported that a bomber was shot down by AA fire and that all damage was repaired before the evening.

And finally the Japanese meteorologists provided to the area commander a forecast of thunderstorms. Under such cover the raiding surface TF waiting north of Green Island (the CA Atago and 3 DD) was ordered to sail at full speed to Goodenough Island to bombard it (and hit shipping off the base). 24 A6M3a flew to Kavieng from Truk in the evening and will LRCAP these ships, while recon will be flown tomorrow to Buna, Goodenough and Kiriwima Islands.

Timor-DEI-Australia

In the morning the Dutch submarine KVII attacked a barge convoy north of Lautem with gunfire but the Japanese ships escaped undamaged in a fog bank. The submarine reported the attack and in the afternoon 14 Brewster 339D from Darwin found again this convoy and attacked, sinking one barge.

In the afternoon, Lautem was bombed by 113 B-17E, 58 B-25C and 34 B-24D from Darwin escorted by 16 P-40N that scored 7 hits on the airbase, 3 on supplies and 67 on the runway, did 68 casualties, and disabled a gun. A B-25C and a P-40N were lost in accidents.

The evening report for this area gave the airfield status as: Maumere 30/0 (system/runway), Lautem 61/63/11, other bases undamaged. The garrison of Koepang had started again to build fortifications (level 6, 21%).

SRA

The ASW group sent from Manila chased again the American submarine Sunfish NW of Vigan during the night. A MSW and a DD dropped depth charges against her but she escaped undamaged. Japanese airmen saw eight another Allied submarines N and NW of Luzon during the day!

A convoy loaded 21k resources in Swatow, China, and will carry them to Japan, while the TK convoy that sailey yesterday empty from Palembang returned to this base and was again ordered to load 112k oil that it will carry to Singapore.

Burma

Allied air activity was again reduced by bad weather. Myitkyina was attacked by 7 B-25J from Ledo escorted by 21 P-40E that scored 1 hit on supplies and 5 on the runways. In the jungle more west, the 12th NLF was attacked by 56 Hurricane II from Imphal escorted by 6 Spitfire Vb SE of this base, and the 11th NLF SW of Kohima was bombed by 30 Lysander from this base escorted by 10 Spitfire Vb. Both units had no more able squads, so no loss were listed in the combat report but both now were under 50% of their OOB and may eventually disappear. In the evening the 65 Sentai flew from Rangoon to Lashio with 36 Tonies to fly tomorrow LRCAP over the 11th NLF to try to cover it and score some easy kills against the Lysander.

During the day Japanese recon still reported an Allied convoy off Diamond Harbor and small CAP over Kohima, but Allied fighters shot down 2 Dinah II over Kohima and Chandpur. A decimated recon Chutai was sent to Singapore where it upgraded to Dinah III and received rookie crews that will be trained here. Three new recon units arrived from China and DEI in Burma.

The evening report gave the airfield status as: Mandalay 51/22 (system/runway), other bases undamaged. In Myitkyina Japanese engineers continued to build fortifications (level 8, 9%).

The final convoy bringing reinforcements for the Burma front arrived in Bangkok and began to unload a regiment of the 30th Div, the 1st Amphibious Bde, the 11th and 12th Ind Mixed Rgt and the HQ of the 17th Area Army, that will all march north and join the counter-offensive 120 miles west of Myitkyina. These troops should arrive here in 3 weeks.

China

All Japanese troops that were near Kunming retired SE during the day and will march to Kweiyang.

Chinese troops 120 miles east of Kweiyang (2 War Area HQ, 5 Corps) were bombed by 35 Oscar II, 24 A6M3a, 22 Ki-49 and 19 Ki-21 from Wuhan, 22 Ki-48 and 20 Ki-21 from Nanning and 12 Oscar II from Nanchang and lost 93 men and 1 gun while a Lily was lost in a crash. They were then the target of a shock attack launched by the troops of the Southern China Army facing them (5.33 Div, 1 Tk Rgt, 2 ART, 2 HQ) and were defeated at 8 to 1 (1844 Japanese AV (not counting x2 due to shock attack) vs 1107, adjusted to 2201 vs 275). All Chinese troops retreated this time, and joined eastwards the Chines reinforcements coming the other way. 19 Chinese units were reported E of the battlefield in the evening. Japanese losses were 1408 men, 26 guns and 2 tanks, Chinese ones 771 killed and wounded, more than 4000 prisonners (30+ troop points) and 17 guns.

The 50th Chinese Corps was bombed NW of Changsha by 24 Ki-51 from Wuhan and lost 23 men. The part of the 11th Bde ordered to join the 11th Army in Changsha will arrive tomorrow and the attack on this city planned after the victory east of Kweiyang will be delayed. All air units in the area will so be allowed a rest day before supporting this attack.

Japan

Five IJNAF air units were created today with mean experienced pilots and crews (exp 57-60) and were all sent to Sapporo and Ominato. They all will be used to complement KB air units and had a total of 48 A6M2, 75 Kates and 54 Vals. A Val was lost in a crash during the transfer flight, as was one of the 32 Ki-57 arriving in Ominato from Hungnam and planned to ferry troops in the area in the next days.
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RE: 14 July 1943: early return of the Allied fleet

Post by Miller »

I wonder if your opponent is going to get a Lexington 3[:D]

Is there a limit on the number of CV's that re-spawn?
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